The Power of Perspective: Susan Braakman on Leadership, Listening, and Leaving Judgment Behind

Hello, Susan Braakman.

Hello, Sabine.

Happy Friday.

Happy Friday indeed, yeah. It is.

Yeah, it's nice to see you on this sunny day.

And I wanted to let you know you are the first person that I'm interviewing or having be in the podcast on this new series that's titled Beyond the Ladder. And I'm interviewing the, I'm speaking to or interviewing the women that I interviewed for the book Beyond the Ladder. And I had this idea to ask

three questions, that's it, just three questions. But these three questions are actually very insightful. And we all know that storytelling is so important. And I thought that it could be interesting to dive into these and hear what you have to say and share your ideas because I know that it can have a big impact on others as well.

Okay.

Nice! I'm ready!

All right, buckle up. Get ready.

So the first question is, tell me about a time when you faced a big decision and instead of playing it safe, that you ask yourself, what if I don't? And how did that moment create a ripple either in your life or in your career?

Yeah

What if I don't? That's an interesting one, Because you always think about, okay, if I do this, then this and this and this will happen. But what if I don't? Yeah, guess that's one of the first biggest career steps that I made.

Yeah, it shifts the perspective a little bit, doesn't it? Yeah.

Yeah.

I was working as a recruiter, I was not even 30 I think and my then manager, so the company got sold and my then manager got a payout so he was leaving and he actually asked me while I was still just a recruiter, that's at least how I saw it, to take over his role and that was to manage the...

Mm-hmm.

the group of recruiters in the Netherlands. So it was quite a big responsibility. And as I said, I was not even 30. I think I was 28 or something. Graduated from school two years before. And I was like, okay. And he's asking me to take on this role.

Mmm.

And I decided to do it because I thought what do I have to lose? He had such a trust in me. The team at that time had that too. So I was like, yeah, why if I don't do this, then I stay a recruiter forever? I don't know. You know, you keep on thinking, okay, what can happen?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, could have, could have, yeah.

And I was really like, what do I have to lose? So I took the opportunity and I accepted that role and yeah, that turned into something really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

and you excelled. Yeah.

And that maybe it's interesting that that decision actually led our paths to cross and connect to because had you not taken that role you would have potentially because we worked at the same company for those of the people that don't know that and and that could have potentially put you on a different path that we would have never met. That would have been horrible.

Yeah, indeed.

Yeah,

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

And did you regret

it? Did you regret regret making that decision?

Not any moment, no. Not for a second, because it was very good for my development. It was good for the team at that time.

And it gave me so many insights on how to manage a team, first of all, but also the politics that happened. gave insights into, how are decisions being made? How can I advocate for myself? Because it was very important to also show me at that point.

Right?

Right.

And yeah, I just took it and it wasn't something to regret at all. Of course, I mean, there were days that weren't nice and we have months that we, you know, that we weren't successful. But that helps to build where I'm now. And I think it's also good to learn from those setbacks as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it gave such nice exposure and all that.

sure.

Yeah, Yeah, that's definitely true.

and I was super happy with that.

And I'm assuming that you stepped into it and you didn't feel that you, well, maybe not that you didn't feel that you couldn't do it, but there were lots of areas for you to learn and to grow into. So it wasn't that you stepped into it and said, all right, I can kick back now and kind of just let it happen. Big learnings is for you as well.

No

Yeah, big learnings definitely. Yeah, and that also helped me and forced me in a way to be vulnerable as well. So to be honest about that. But to also ask people, okay, how would you deal with this? Because I had a counterpart on the other side, let's say, because I was responsible for marketing and sales and there was another lady who was responsible for clinical medical. She was more experienced.

So we could liaise together, how would she handle certain things and really take that opportunity to ask for help. I think that's also super important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So important. so, so important, And to feel good about it and to

not feel that it's a sign of whatever weakness that we have, a failure, a weakness, it's just not at all. That's great.

Failure or yeah no no

yeah Yeah and also to be aware because I mentioned my age you know at that at the beginning and even this morning I had a conversation with someone that we always hide behind her behind her our age right we say well I'm you know I'm now 45 but

Yeah, I'm only this

or now I'm I am that. So yeah, that's so true. We hide behind our age.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

interesting

point. We'll have to get that into that in another conversation. That's another topic in itself. You do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Indeed, yeah, yeah. You just have to forget about that, right? And you have to believe

in what you bring and not what your age thinks you should bring. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's so true. All right, thanks for that. That's nice.

And so the second question is about people that have impacted you. And if you reflect on your life and your career, who has been a ripple in your life shaping how you lead today? And if you could thank them right now, what would you say?

Yeah, that's interesting. Because I have many of those. I'm in the happy situation that I have many.

Yeah.

I think that also has to do with the fact like how I deal with others and how I see others because I'm really about learning and being indeed vulnerable and being open to others perspectives. But if I have to choose one, I would choose a coach that I've worked with. It was actually at at Seuss and she

open my eyes? Sure, yeah, yeah, it's Claire. And she...

You can share, why don't you share her name actually? Yeah.

She opened my eyes into what impact I make. because she brought the outside perspective, she saw us as a management team and each of the individuals in the management team had their individual coaching moments with her. So I shared what I did and we also spoke about it in the mentoring group today that

usually people when they list what they do, they list their responsibilities. They list their job description. However, if you take an outside perspective and you look at, what impact do I make? She actually mentioned to me, well, you're such like a glue within this team. You you bring people together, you connect, you don't have any judgments. And what I thought was very nice to hear, because I really...

Right.

I see the world is difficult at the moment because people have so many judgments about each other. And that can cause conflicts and all that. And actually, that's her saying that she mentioned to me, why don't you look into mediation course or look into what mediation is? Yeah.

Ooh, she was the trigger for that?

For some reason, I didn't realize that. That's incredible. So big shout out to Claire. We'll definitely have to mention her when we post this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah, yeah. So Claire, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, because I wasn't aware about, you know, that role even existed. And I always thought, you know, that's something you have to have like a legal background to to do this. And but it's actually not. It's all about listening skills, facilitating communication and asking the right questions. And here we are. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, here we are. Thank you, Claire.

That'll make her day to hear that. So, and my third and final question today is, so when you leave your legacy, what is one ripple that you would like to be remembered for?

Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's weird, right, to think about that. Like when you're not there anymore, what happens and what do you want people to take away?

Yeah, Or even when

you're there because sometimes I think we think that our legacy is like when we're like gone, but Our legacy can actually be while we're still here too. And that's maybe a different way to think about it as well. So it's both.

It's

Yeah, I would say it ties very much into the non-judgmental part that I just spoke about. Although it might be small, but I want to add to the fact that we are nicer to each other as people, as human beings, by leaving out our judgments

about people and by being open to other other perspectives instead of immediately wanting to show your opinion or show your perspective or but take that moment to actually listen and show people that you hear see and understand them and that would be super important for me if people talk about me that I'm the one facilitating that or at least give people the insight

that that is what is important.

Yeah, that is beautiful. And have you heard anyone ever has anyone ever said that to you? That you do that or an example of that?

Definitely the perspectives, yes. And also the active listening piece, definitely. that is something that the team shares, but the people I mentor as well. Yeah Yeah. Luckily I am,

Okay.

Yeah.

So there you go. So you're already leaving the legacy and you're still very much here.

Yeah, exactly. that's beautiful. You're right caring for people. That's a that's a wonderful thing to be remembered by and To actually pass that on to others because we need so much of that in the world that we're living in

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do. I think, I, because we, have my daughter, of course, you know her, and she's 11, and I see her taking that, that as well. Not having judgments also, because she's still like relatively young, right? So you don't have that when you're a child. They just don't have it. But they, but she is...

She is very much practicing what I preach to. I see it happening and I think it's because she sees me doing it. If you would share a story with her or you would ask her how she's doing, she would always ask the question back. And how about you? How are you doing?

Yeah.

She

that is so interesting that you say that because I called one day. think it was a couple of weeks ago. You were somewhere else and she is very comfortable with your computer because that your desk there. And so she picked up and I asked her that and then thought that we would move on. And she actually came right back and asked that but very authentically and really wanted to hear. So.

Yeah, yeah, when I wasn't there. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

⁓ So she is doing it. Yeah. Yeah, no, it doesn't feel, no, it certainly didn't feel like

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's not an act, I can tell. Yeah. Yeah.

one. yeah, She was really curious and interested.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So there you go, that's gonna keep it going too. And It just proves the point that it is like walking, what is it, it walking your talk? I think that that's the phrase that you use. And having people see what you do because that actually makes them keep or do it as well. So it really is like seeing people.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, we're going to talk. Yeah.

How are they engaging with other people? How do they talk? How are they respectful to other people? Does impact how you do it. So if you see it enough, it starts to potentially get embedded in your own behavior. So it's a very actually easy thing to do by living it and being authentic and listening and caring about people. Others will see it and hopefully pick up on that and do the same thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely,

yeah. Yeah.

Nice.

Fantastic. Well, thanks very much for that. Very nice insights. I hope everyone enjoys that and definitely excited to if people want to read more about Susan and her advocacy for herself as well, then you can pick up Beyond the Ladder when it's on shelves. I don't know if it's going to be on shelves or when it's online. It'll be somewhere.

You're very welcome.

Yeah, Absolutely.

Yeah, you too. Bye.

So thanks and have a fantastic weekend. Bye.