Start Right Where You Are

Hi everyone and welcome back to the Ripple Network. So this season we seem to keep returning to one question. What does it look like when impact is quiet, when it moves slowly, and when it doesn't necessarily hit the headline? But things change anyway. And today's conversation lives exactly in that space. We're going to be talking about a kind of transformation that doesn't get presented in slide decks and that's not on in newspapers or you don't necessarily see it.

It's the kind that happens inside a person when the external world kind of stops providing the stability that they've been counting on, when the scaffolding is gone, and when the only direction available is forward, through it and without necessarily knowing what's on the other side. I think we've probably all experienced some of that. And specifically, we're going to be talking about an experien what an experience looks like for someone who has spent decades helping other people do exactly this.

making plans and getting ready for the future. Because there is a gap between sometimes what we teach and what we have to actively live by. And that gap is where today's conversation begins. So, my guest I'm so pleased to welcome is Adrienne Gibson. She is a keynote speaker, a facilitator, an organizational consultant, and she has more than two decades of experience helping companies move through change.

across pharmaceutical companies, financial services, and technology. And the center of her work has always been a single conviction that transferna for that transformation is never purely strategic. And underneath it, every ch every change program, every restructure, and every cultural shift, they're people. And what happens inside those people is what determines whether anything actually changes at all. So in 2025,

Adrienne own world, own ground shifted. There was no roadmap. There wasn't a n necessarily a methodology for this particular version of uncertainty. And what she found in the middle of it was something new. It was something that she had already built. it was ready and waiting for exactly that moment to come out. So, Adrienne I'm so glad that you're here. And we touched on a lot of this in our previous conversation, and I'm just really excited to dive.

into your story even more. So welcome to the Ripple Network.

Thank you so much. It's a joy to be here.

Yeah, we've actually network is actually I always like to call out the individuals that make introductions because I think sometimes that's so underrated or undervalued of the the networks that we have. And you had a conversation. A lot of the a lot of it comes back five HBA somehow with me. It's interesting because that network is so large. And you're actually supporting the HBA and you were in touch with Suzanne Braackman.

Yes.

Who connected us and said, You two need to talk because there's something, there's something there. And and that's what happened. And there was definitely something there.

Exactly. And I find that if you just follow those little breadcrumbs, the little synchronicities of life, they they lead to a lot of unexpected and beneficial places.

Yeah.

Yeah, they definitely do. And and your packed as well, right? You're from the US. You were just telling me you're in northern England right now. So maybe you can just take us a bit a bit of that journey, how how you ended up where you are today.

Yes.

Yeah, I'm happy to. So I I think you and I grew up in a similar part of the world anyway. So I was from Alabama originally and spent much of my well, all of my formative years there and then moved to Florida for a while. so

I left Alabama, I think, in 2003, moved to Florida for six years. And while I was there, it was actually a job restructuring that I had advanced notice that my type of position that I held was going to be eliminated. And the company wanted to place me. And literally the only place where they had a job doing the kind of things that I do was in London. So I had a why not moment and just decided to go. And as my mother will probably tell you, when I pitched the idea to her and she

Ha ha ha.

wasn't the biggest fan, said, how long will you be there? I say, eighteen to twenty four months max. And here I am, that was two thousand nine. So it's been seventeen years. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

no.

Yeah, and just like that, a flash, you're here for seventeen years. Yeah. So that's incredible. So this adjustment, obviously, from living growing up in the US and then being abroad. So we def I can definitely relate. So we both grew up in the South and we both made that transition. you to the UK and then I'm living in Germany now. So it's and and your work I find really fascinating. So this transformation and helping organizations and even individuals, right? So you're

Exactly.

Yeah.

The work that you do is about helping in in in stages of transformation for companies and people. And tell me a bit about that. Like what's the what is the human part of that?

Well, so I spent twenty years working in-house in corporate HR types of roles and through that experience have been exposed to in some way or led every kind of change you can make on the people's side of the business. So if it's a a culture or systems or an organizational structure or whatever it may be. And then I've I started to learn over the years that that that became a bit of my specialism.

when I would start being asked to lead particular task forces. And then when I left being an in-house and becoming a consultant in 2015, the first gig I was I was asked to take on was a massive global transformation where we had teams in 43 different countries and four different businesses trying to bring them all together. so it's been something that I've just

I stumbled into by by accident as we often do. And then the more my career continued, the more it just continued to expand in that way. And now working with businesses, it's, you know, as a consultant or, you know, a facilitator or whatever, I do speak a lot about how to lead change in the business and how what are the dynamics that actually get people to get on board with it? How do we get them engaged? so it's one thing to go through processes, which is great.

Great, and we can do process, but actually, how do you get to connect with people at the head and the heart level to get them on board and get them engaged? Because

Even if you are replacing technology in an organization, for example, at the end of every change is a human being. And the degree to which that person accepts or rejects the change, or resists it in some way, it determines the success. So it's just kind of happened over time that that's that's become a specialism by accident and through practice, a lot of practice.

Right.

practice and some self. I I alluded to a s also a transformation in your own life that you've that you've gone through in this this time and this shift and if you know again as much as you're comfortable sharing would you kind of take us on that journey with you because I think that that can be so inspiring and enlightening for others as well because there's also we need to look inwardly as as part of our transformation.

Yeah.

Yes.

Exactly.

And you know, you you and I touched on it at the start of the conversation about moving abroad. I think for me, there have been a number of instances throughout my life where I've made major changes. but I think the they were all sort of isolated in particular areas of life until twenty twenty five, when it seems like all of it just came together at once. So at that time I was living in Portugal because I decided to leave the UK.

For a few years and live abroad. And I was living in Portugal and was looking at exploring moving back to the UK, but wasn't quite ready. And it was just a dynamic in life where I was

in the stage of ramping my business back up after having intentionally taken a little period period out. so my business was still kind of finding its feet again as we all do when you go through business development and that sort of thing, trying to open the pipeline up again. And deciding about where I wanted to live and moving back to the UK and

was having some decisions about, you know, relationship and all of this kind of thing and out of the blue had a bit of a health scare. So I say a bit of a health scare. That's me innately incorporating my Britishness, because as an American I would say

I got threatened with a major life illness, right? That's a little bit more dramatic way I might have said it back in the States. But I had a a health scare and at the time was told that I was gonna need ongoing consistent treatment in the UK for a prolonged period of time, meaning a f a few years. And at the time was not prepared to to leave Portugal just yet. It was the the the seed had been planted, but I wasn't ready.

Mm. Right.

And yeah, so it was life sort of sped up for me and said, No, you you're ready now because you you you don't really have a choice, you have to go. So what it ended up happening in the summer was I had to make the decision to to leave Portugal. And again it meant I needed to pause my business for a bit because there were a lot of moving parts that I wasn't going to be able to give my business the time and and attention it needed to properly develop the pipeline the way that I wanted to.

so yeah, I took some time out and moved.

country, had some other things that I wanted to do with family. I had a it sounds a bit strange, but in the midst of all of this, my 82 at the time year old mom had planned a dr a dream trip with my brother and sister and I, for just the four of us, to take a trip to Alaska to get her last state of the 50 states that she'd ever visited. And I had told the surgeons and whatnot, I'm not missing this, so we're gonna have to put everything off. So I took time out to to do that and have a really special

Experience with my mom and my siblings before landing in the UK and then undergoing the treatments and whatever. But at the time, I didn't have a proper place to land in the UK because I didn't have time to actually find a place to live and all of that. So I found myself in the autumn of 25 with pausing my business. And of course, there are financial implications that come with that. So it meant financial constraints and things of that nature.

Sure. Yeah.

being in temporary accommodation in between places. my partner at the time, which we were exploring, you know, what do we want to do with our relationship? We decided, no, no, this is too serious. Let's stay together and kind of work through what what's happening. So I was grateful for that. But then also not having my health to rely on. It was as if, as you said at the start, like all of the external

pillars that we hold on to for security and life were suddenly all upheaved at the same time. And that was a very raw and vulnerable place to be.

Yeah.

Right. And that's what you do. You actually help the rawness of individuals and and and and other organizations. And one of the things that stuck with me is when the first conversations that we had, you talked about this idea, and I want to make sure I get it right here, because this idea of skills as savings, I think that that's the phrase that you used, that they don't go away.

But sometimes you have to you have to pull these these skills out. And what what did you have to pull out during this experience? What from the the from the lessons that you've been giving other people that you've learned over the years?

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's it's a great question. And I'm I'm gonna take you on a slight kind of roundabout if it's okay, Sabine, just to to say life prepared me for that moment. Because if I go back to probably the biggest upheavals that I started having was in two thousand six, I have been through some pretty significant

Sure.

Mm-hmm.

life transformations myself over the course of the 20 years or 19 years preceding this moment. So I had in 2006 a gas a gastric bypass. I lost 250 pounds, transformed my body, became like I was running triathlons and things having gone from lot losing all that weight. So massive transformation physically. And then shortly after that, moving abroad. That was a two-year time frame.

Massive. What ti what time frame are you talking about with that? Because

Two years. Yeah. So it might have been just a little bit over two years. but yeah, just completely transforming my my physical body. Then right after that, literally a month after I'd had my last reconstructive surgery from that, I moved abroad. And then I think about two or three years. So it was about three years between the the first and then moving abroad. Then about three years later.

my relationship of twenty five years I chose to end and then it was

two to three years later that I ended my corporate career and decided to go out on my own. so those were some major life events that I had had for my own personal transformation. And then in I think 2021, my partner now, he retired and we went on a year nomadic journey, bought an eight and a half meter motorhome and traveled around Scotland, Wales, England, living in different parts of the country, exploring.

So I had been by design intentionally homeless at that point as well. So I take you back to say all of these things that I had had that had happened to me gave me experiences as well as the stuff that I had done in corporate. So when I'm working with corporates around it's around how do we help people get past whatever resistance they may have to help influence them to get on board. Well

You know, during my experiences of my own transformations, I had been in really challenging places before where one element of my life had been significantly up upheaved, and the discomfort and you know, what we could the vulnerability that we go through with that. So I think having gone through so many major life transformations over the years and having to move to Portugal as well. I mean, there was all these things that I'd done, it just meant

That I had built up a level of resilience and knowing how to navigate those really uncertain and quite candidly uncomfortable spaces when life just doesn't feel either pleasant or comfortable, or certainly not going as expected. And I think what came for me was as everybody.

tends to experience in these kind of things. We might have those moments of, why me? Why is this happening? You know, that old victim voice will come in from the back and go, what did I do to deserve this? You know, this whole because we get to those low places. And it was

Right.

Yep, we do.

It was in one of those really low places where I felt like, my gosh, I can't believe this is happening to me. I'm feeling really sorry for myself. That it just it's like a wave came over me of, you know, I no one's coming to save me. I've got to, I've got to rebuild for myself.

And it was as if a a light switch just happened and that part of me who had developed the muscle memory of how do you navigate a new country or a new job or a new relationship or or being on your own after 25 years or whatever it is, how do you navigate your way through that uncertainty and where do you start? You start right where you are. And what I kept telling myself, because it the the moment came to me in the hospital when I woke up from a second surgery.

Having gone through the the treatment that I was going through. And it was just, what can I do for myself in this moment? And for the next several months after that, it was each day as I would wake up, think, what can I do for myself to get closer to the life that I want to rebuild for myself? And that just became

my quest of how do I care for myself and give myself whatever I need today to help me move along the path in the way that's most aligned with where it is that I want to go.

You've said so many things that I could feel that we could go off in I've I wrote down some words resistance, navigate the muscles that that we have and that we build and the way that we act. And and and then one one piece as well what struck me is that you said a surgery, but as you said that I thought was thinking, you've had a lot of surgeries, so your body is

Yeah.

that that also is intense for your body to kind of be in the moment and to and to recover and to heal as well. Yeah. Yeah. So that is about being in that moment. And I and it's so interesting what you say. And I think that that can be such a challenge is that we regularly look to the future. We look to take a step. We want to take a step. We want to go here. We want to go here. And in that process we forget to about being in the now and right now. And I believe that that

Yeah. Exactly, yeah.

is there's the balance of that. It's there's the balance of looking for the in into the future and having goals and aspirations and where you want to go, but also being present and where you are right now and what's happening. Do you do you do you have that as well? Do you experience that?

I yeah, I do. I think so after I had finished the the major surgery, which was mid-October, I would say the two weeks after that I was pretty significantly debilitated and and unable to do a lot for myself. And that by itself, I am a high energy, high drive sort of, you know, someone who's very independent and and has the you know, I used to be nicknamed the Energizer Bunny because I was always, you know, had more energy than one person.

Would would typically have. So for me, being in that space for a couple of weeks where I couldn't do much for myself and

you know it it's this a space where you can feel really sorry for yourself because you feel like all of what you're all of what you're accustomed to is suddenly very different. So yes, I couldn't do for myself physically, but it was also I was accustomed to working or, you know, just various things, right? Where I had to sit in that space of

really deep vulnerability of not having all the external pillars in my life sorted the way that I wanted them to and being debilitated to the point that I couldn't tend to my all of my basic needs by myself, you know. and it was really tough. And I think the part for me, particularly as someone who's typically known as being strong and resilient and to be in that space and just have to accept.

To accept that this is not a permanent state that I'm going to be in. This is temporary. I've gone through healing journeys physically before, and I trust myself and my body to do what I need to do to recover. I just have to accept where I am right now and what can I do for myself to improve my situation or to at least.

take whatever steps I can to move in the direction I want to go given where I am right now. And it takes a bit of a recalibration of what are my expectations of me and letting go of that

It is a form of resistance, I think, of not accepting where you are, because you think, well, this is where I should be, or this is where I'm accustomed to being. You you want to hold on to that norm or that perception of yourself and not accept that, well, yes, and I will return there, but it's going to take some time. and I do think having to accept where you are.

make peace with that and know that you can take the steps is is really the way I think to navigate to navigate through it.

Absolutely. But I'd like to get back to that. But I think you you you mentioned something very interesting as you talked about resilience, that you see yourself as a resilient individual. And I believe that that doesn't go away. So your resilience was with you in those difficult times because that was what was pushing you forward and and helping you take that next step. And I feel so often when I hear stories or when I listen to individuals that have had

Well,

Yeah.

significant struggles in their life. And they say, well, you just gotta kind of pick up and go and and and do it and take that first step and and be in the moment and be with yourself. But how do you do that? That is those saying those words, yeah, we I think a lot of us can say that, but do you would you feel comfortable sharing just some examples like how did you? How did you were there

Did you do meditation? Did you do what did you do for yourself to get keep moving? And even if you step back a few times, how did you continue that forward motion?

I I think for me it was a number of things. So first is the very practical kind of stuff. Like I know having gone through a number of surgeries, it is best to get up and move after as soon after as possible for most things. I'm not trying to pretend that that's the case for everything, but to move after. And so things like, you know, I'm getting up out of the bed, even though I don't feel like it. I know it's safe and I'm getting up and moving because this is gonna help me. It's just remembering that this is

to be better for me longer term if i can push myself right now so it's getting out of just the moment and the discomfort or or despair or vulnerability or whatever it is and thinking ahead this is gonna serve me if i can get up and move if i can get up and have a shower by myself or these small little things that i could do but it was also things that i found nurtured me so i would listen even

In the hospital to really calming sound frequencies and and music. So it might have been beach sounds or some of these playlists on Spotify, for example, that have like the yoga kind of you know, just the different sounds that are healing frequencies and things. I would listen to things like that to keep my system as calm as possible despite the chaos, obviously, that's going on in the hospital. there would

Right.

would be you know you talk about breath work for example you know trying to remember when I could feel the agitation or the upset in my system or the the anxiety the irritation of what was going on around me is to keep coming back and taking really deep breaths. You know they talk about box breathing where you take a deep breath hold it release it slowly hold the emptiness. I would do practices like that to try to keep my nervous system as regulated as possible

possible because it would be easy to fly off and then ride a wave of a particular emotion feeling really sorry for myself. And you know what? Sometimes I did that. Sometimes I allowed the release valve to go and I cried and, you know, complained and had a pity party for a little while and said, okay, it's out of my system. Now I can, I can pick back up. It's it's kind of all of it really.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

think you're the one of the one of the signs of resilience too is the pity parties get shorter. You don't you're allowed to have them. And I think that that's that that is such a such a valid point is that it's okay. we can we can have those pity parties, but let's have them for a a shorter period of time each time that we experience them and to pull ourselves out.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's true. Yeah. And sometimes it is genuinely, and depending upon how you're we're all wired a little bit differently, right? It's sometimes it's just the release valve of you're holding so much that if you can just I find, let it just go, then suddenly just the inside feels a lot calmer and more stable just by having released some of the tension that you're they're carrying emotionally. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that is so true. And that back to your point, what you mentioned, it's also then that gives you the space to be in the now and to to take to to be with yourself and to be able to take that next step and to listen to your body and and and and then focus and then think about the future again. So it's a very it's a very intertwined system or cycle, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah. And it all and it all balances, right? So like when you were asking some of the things I do, like every day I would walk.

And maybe in the hospital it was I might walk for five or ten minutes, you know, and I would try to add on each day. But then when I got out of hospital, it was like continuing that path. And then the walking became yoga and the yoga became Pilates and it became swimming and it became it was like constant little progressions to the next thing and the next thing to keep trying to push myself a little bit more without going too far, because that's a fine balance in and of itself. But because I I knew the more

more I could move and the more I could ground myself and my body and be out in nature or or do different things, it was it was all having an effect that was not only enabling me physically to heal, but also bringing me a little bit more peace to have more resilience to navigate what I was going through. Yeah.

And it's such an interesting conversation because we can relate a lot of this to ourselves, right? It's work that we do. It's work that we do when we're not at it's work that we don't do when we're at work. And you know, we spend time meditating and breath work. You know, Suzanne is also a big proponent of breath work. She does a lot with that. And it's the consistency of doing it over a cig over time. And it and and just this repetition is just so important.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And we sometimes take that person and put them here and they're not in the office anymore. That we this this disassociation I find sometimes is a real shame because we are that person too. So the work that you do with companies and organizations, so if we were to bring that back into the into the mix of the conversation, how how do you incorporate that in with companies? Because some companies would be like breath work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are talking about? We're not gonna do that. Or why do my employees need to be centered in and in the now before they take the steps for the future? Why does the company need to take time to be in the now before they take steps in the future? So could you tell us a bit about that? And what what do you even think about that? Is the is is there a space for that in in the transformational work that you do?

And there is and it and it is all client contextual, if that makes sense. Because the the thing about this work is just like I was saying, I had to meet myself where I was, you know, to kind of recognize and accept where I was. Some clients may be open to, you know, those kinds of activities and bringing them into the work environment and some won't. and and because I work in a variety of ways, sometimes it's

big groups, sometimes it's one-on-one coaching, it can be a variety of things. There are some clients with coaching that we do say, okay, how do you bring yourself back, you know, from stress? And I do apply some of those methods that work for me. Another one for me is journaling. So I might say to a client, maybe do some journaling or whatever, which there's always a combination that suits whatever that client is. But in the larger group context, really I think for me it's

Process is process, but process doesn't work unless human beings are engaged in the process to make it work. And the way to best engage human beings is to recognize where they are. So for example, you know, if you're going through some sort of an organizational restructuring as an example, different people will be affected by that in different ways. Now I'm not saying you can adapt the organizational restructuring.

Structuring to suit every individual. Of course not. That's unrealistic. But the degree to which leaders can recognize where people are and help them navigate, or, you know, in a case like this, equip the individuals with the tools that they need to navigate through themselves. And that's another piece of it. So it's equipping the leader and equipping the individuals to be able to navigate. It's about dealing with the realities of.

where we are, what are the fears and and uncertainties or discomfort that are coming up? What are the challenges that people have or the concerns that they have about whatever the new way or the new structure may be? What is the impact? Everybody asks the question, what's in it for me or what happens to me?

know, if we start dealing with those realities and the human elements of it and then navigate with that in mind, the the change process becomes a lot easier. So, you know, there are lots of change programs out there, but the but

Whether or not they're successful or not is the degree to which we understand and appreciate where each human might be starting at a different place. They might go at a faster or a slower pace. You know, I I joke in one of my keynotes I do sometimes when I talk a little bit about changes that one of the things about leading through people through changes, it's like trying to herd cats. You know, you've got all kinds of people going in very different directions and

They might pop up somewhere unexpectedly because that's the nature of human dynamics. People aren't always predictable, and past behavior doesn't always predict future. They might be going through a completely different circumstance this time. And have helping the individuals understand where they are and how to navigate their own inner experience of the change also facilitates the outer experience of the change to look and feel very different as well.

Do you find that most organizations give that time during this transformation?

No. Nope. Not at all. And I I I it's rare. It's very it's very rare. So normally what I see that happens is change programs are usually predicated by some sort of a need financial.

need or there could be something with a new product or a merger and acquisition or whatever. There's usually some sort of motivation to do it at a certain speed or at a certain cost or whatever the case may be. And often because speed is usually speed and cost are usually the two triggers that will mean we we've got to move faster than might be

best serving the organization or we have a certain cost to meet. A lot of these things go out the window. or to be honest, Sabine, and this is not coming from a place of superiority at all, but a lot of people don't know and don't understand. You can get these books off the shelf that tell you how to go through change programs, but they don't understand sometimes the

the role that the human dynamics play. So sometimes it's just a lack of understanding of that. But I find that particularly in today's environment, change happens so quickly and there's an urgency, particularly in Western led organizations, because Eastern-led organizations don't tend to move at the same pace. They're they tend to be a little bit more considerate about these kinds of things, without over stereotyping here. I think speed gets often

put at the forefront over the quality and the true level of engagement.

to jump back to that for a second, this eastern and western piece. So what you've worked on both, both cultures. So tell us it gives it do you have any examples of the difference?

Yes. Yeah.

my goodness. you know when I said to you the first job that I got offered when I came out to work independently as a consultant was for legacy businesses, 43 countries. So it was a Japanese organization that had acquired three other businesses, one in Switzerland and two in America. And what I saw was

A just an absolute night and day that could not have been more different around the change program. So the teams that were led out of the two US-based businesses were accustomed to really rapid change and rapid succession of change. Whereas the teams that were based out of Japan were accustomed to having a more long-term orientation.

To change and planning something out, what will be the impacts later on. And when the two were trying to come together, there was inevitably just conflict that would happen, sometimes open conflict, sometimes hidden conflict, where there was a real disparity around how to operate. And sometimes the language that was being used was the same.

You know, you might say, we need to implement this change quickly. Yes, we do. And East and West agree on that. But what does quickly mean? So without understanding, I have a different perception than you do. What does this actually mean? They're walking away from the conversation with very divergent opinions about how to actually go about implementing that.

Mm quep.

Right, the definition of that, yeah.

the other thing, for example, is that in a lot of Eastern cultures, and not just Eastern, Nordic countries as well, there's more of an egalitarian approach to to business where it's like we're all equal. So there's more of a making decisions based on consensus. And I don't mean a hundred percent consensus, but looking at what's best for the group as opposed to a lot of

Western and other countries as well, but are more hierarchical. A decision gets made and it gets trickled down the organization. So the time that it takes to make decisions and have them implemented is different because the approach is is very different as well. So

things like, okay, we need to get a quick decision on this, you know, it might mean I had one conversation, the decision is made, let's move on. Whereas in another culture, it's actually we need to socialize this amongst the group and give people time to think about that. And then the group will then tell the boss what the decision should be so that the boss can ultimately

make the decision even though it came from the group. So things like that are just absolutely normal in international business where I think a lot of organizations don't understand the degree to which there is the misunderstanding, where they're they're communicating the same things but have completely different contexts.

And do you see when we you use the word, yeah, what's the definition of quickly? D the the the quicker implementation and this I guess the successful implementation also dramatic differences depending upon the culture or maybe the embeddedness of it? I don't yeah, how

Well, and I would say speed doesn't necessarily mean that something is or isn't successful, right? It's one it's one measure of how quickly. But ultimately it's how ready are people for the change.

Mm. Absolutely. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Do they know it's coming? How much communication has there been? How much socialization or whatever? How how much opportunity have people had to talk about it amongst themselves or to weigh in on whatever the solution is? So let's say, for example, you know, I was talking about the Japanese led business. When it came to actual implementation and adoption of the change, because the consensus had been reached, and then that

census had been given to the boss to to officially make the decision, then people were already contributing to the solution and what it should look like. And they they had skin in the game, to put it bluntly, because they were part of the contribution. In other parts of the organization where it was that top-led organizational hierarchy, a decision is made and pushed down.

Whether it's spoken or not spoken, there is often a huge level of resistance, partly because people weren't consulted, people weren't asked about. And no disrespect here, but often the higher we get in the organization, the less realistic.

Right.

we are about what really happens at the different layers of the organization. So somebody else in a team three layers down may understand that if you pull that lever, something over here is going to break. And they want to say that, but their view is not welcome at the time. So you actually have to go through the change process

And allow the something to break. Whereas in these other cultures where you're involving more people in making the decision, it's very different because those things surface earlier in. So the change process may look like it takes longer by the socialization, but actually the adoption and implementation would be faster because you don't have so many of the breaks or problems that happen. So it it's what is the apparent speed?

Something can look faster on the out on the outside, but it's really not because the the the genuine change in adoption, changed behaviors, whatever, aren't necessarily happening. So what looks fast is actually a lot slower than it than it appears. Yeah.

lot slower. Yeah. Yeah, so true. So if you were to give a message to leaders in organizations, hmm, and and they're in the process of a restructure or a strategy shift and or some other uncertain moment that they could be dealing with, what would what would you want them to hear most from your story and also from the work that you do?

Yeah, I think if we're talking specifically relating to change, what I would say is that it's really important to recognize the human dynamics that are affecting the change and that it's actually unlikely that that they're hearing as much as is really going on under the surface. And so even if things look like they're progressing at a certain pace, they may not be because the human element

plays a much bigger role in the success or failure of change. So it's about creating open, safe spaces for people to be able to talk about what's working, what's not working, what what things might be coming up. And that in itself is a nuance because just because you ask doesn't mean you're going to get on s honest answers. You know, it's it there's a lot of nuance in and how we ask as well. And I think if I were

offering something from my personal story and my own change. It is really about and there's a parallel between the two, is about meeting yourself where you are, you know, recognizing what it is that you need to be able to to move forward and not feeling like you have somebody else's expectations or somebody else's path to to work towards.

To do whatever feels innately right for yourself and to take the steps in that direction to have that courage to keep consistent and aligned with what feels right for you. Because I mean the life that I'm living right now doesn't externally look like some people might expect it to look, but it's okay because it's authentically mine and the steps I'm taking are to continue to do it that way. And as leaders in business, everybody is going through their own experience too. So how do we recognize that in them?

to help bring people along with us instead of trying to get people to f to fit a particular mold that may not work.

may not work and for them ultimately which then has then impacts the the organization as well. Yeah, so true. So I talk a lot also in my book and to people about legacy. And I'm a firm believer that legacy is not something that we or that is is known about us at the end. It's very much part of our lives now. And yeah, at the end. So it feels sometimes it feels so odd to talk about legacy because we associate it with

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

not being here anymore. And I think that that's such a shame because legacy is definitely a part of of what we do every day. So I have two questions for you. One is, what does your legacy practice look like on a what is today, a Thursday afternoon or a Thursday morning? And if you could describe really the legacy that you would like to be known for.

Yeah.

Hmm, I think it's it's very clear for me. And that is that I I want to be known for living an authentic life that is uniquely mine. both authentic as in what you see is what you get, you know, very honest, transparent, sort of like that, but also the life and the path that I choose for myself is uniquely mine and it works well for me, regardless of what the external noise.

tells me how I ought to to live. I think is that is that's my legacy. And if there was one gift that I could offer to people, it would be to help them find whatever it is that's within themselves that's uniquely them, whether it's their gifts, whether it's their path, but to stay true to whatever that is. And if there are ways that I can help people

unlock that and bring it out. And in companies, it's the same thing. How do I help unlock and bring that out? Right. that to me is the greatest privilege.

I believe that you're very much living your legacy, Adrienne. Definitely from the organizations that that you're supporting and the individuals. And I think oftentimes in the work that you do, you may not see the direct ripple or the impact of what you've had, but it's there. And that to keep to keep going with that in mind, I think is so important.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And hopefully that that keeps you kind of moving. And I don't think anything actually needs to inspire you to keep going. I think you love what you do. you can feel it. Yeah. And when you share and what you talk about, helping organizations and individuals. So and I'm sure you're leaving incredible ripples. And so, so yeah, I'm sure you are. And I'm sure if you ask a few people, they would definitely share that, that that the impact that you've had.

Thank you.

I hope I truly hope so.

Sometimes it's good to do. I was just speaking to someone, she's a CEO of the company, Lori Ball. We were talking about yesterday I was talking to her, and

About we so often don't tell the people that have had an impact on our lives. And how nice would that be if once a week you gave somebody a ring, sent someone a note and said, Thank you. This was you something that you did, a conversation that we had, an act that you did, a door that you opened for me had an impact. It can be anything. And and we get away from this this categorization of big or small, anything. So that

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that that idea that we should do that more often and actually b build that into our daily practice. And that's part of a legacy practice too, I think, if you let people know what an impact they've had on you.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's it's something that I I live by as well. I wanna make sure that I'm telling the people the impact that they've had and showing gratitude for whatever you know they've been able to help open for me. It's it's very powerful. And I know I love

You know, when I have coaching clients who say, it's like I have a little Adrian on my shoulder who's you know, I hear this that you said to me or whatever. It's to me that is the most meaningful thing for me to experience. to to know that I made a difference with someone. So I I try to tell those that are making a difference in my life. Exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

And that you're a tiny one on their shoulder. that's so nice. So we spent a lot of time today talking about organizations and individuals who are trying to make change and to make it feel managed almost, to make it feel safe. We build roadmaps, we have resources, we put programs together, and we communicate that narrative. And all of that definitely has its place.

But what your story shares with us is a very honest thing that that that I actually haven't heard in a long time. It's about this clarity and it's about how I love the story about your your the saving your skills and and that uncertainty that you can pull those pieces out and everyone can everyone can do that. And you can't always have this perfect plan.

But you can have some skills and you can have your resilience and yourself to to push through and to make it forward, sideways, whatever direction you want to go in. and sometimes being in that messy middle is also okay to to be in those moments and not always try to push them away and to get out of them. So thank you very much for this, for this conversation and for sharing your own story.

Not everyone feels comfortable doing that. So I really thank you for that. And I'm sure that it that you'll again leave a ripple for a lot of individuals when they when they listen to the podcast today. So thanks very much for being here with me today.

thanks so much and thanks for allowing me the space to share. I really appreciate it.

Yeah. And we'll send a thank you out to Susan for connecting us. There we go. There's our thank you for the week. All right. Thanks so much.

Yes. Yes, let's do that. Yes. Yeah, exactly.