From Proving to Paving: Leading From the Inside Out

Hi everyone, and welcome back to Be the Ripple. It's season two, and this season is about movement. And It's about the kind of impact that doesn't always announce itself. The ones that move quietly, sometimes in ways that we never fully get to witness. But that change is important. And Today's conversation is about exactly that.

Most of us know what it looks like to lead from the front, to be the one driving, the one whose name is on the outcome, and the one that all heads turn to in the room. And Rebecca Vermeulen has done all of that for over 30 years across complex environments in the global healthcare industry. And then she started asking herself something. And it took a lot of honesty to reflect on. And how much of this is about impact and how much of it is about me.

Because the moment that she could answer that, something really shifted. The drive didn't go away, but the direction of it did. It went towards building and towards lifting others. And that kind of shift is exactly what season two is about. Rebecca is a vice president at Genentech, a member of the Roche group. And in 2025, she was also the recipient of the Star Award from the Healthcare Business Women's Association.

She's led teams across continents, she's guided organizations through crisis and shaped what it means to generally partner with patients in the development of medicines. I know she has a big passion there. And she's here today because she did something that most senior leaders would not allow themselves to do. She stepped back. She took a sabbatical and she used that time to sit with herself honestly in her own relationship to ego, to impact.

and to what it really means to give your time through others instead of holding it for yourself. So Rebecca, I am so happy that you're here today. It took a few times for us to make this work, but happy that it did. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation.

Thank you.

Sabine, I'm so so happy to be with you today. Thank you very much for offering this conversation with you and just this opportunity to be together and share a little bit about my experience. Yeah, it's been a real journey. I'm just, I'm so thrilled to be with you today. Thank you.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's a very good we're gonna have a very focused conversation because I think that this topic is so important. You know, I've heard from so many individuals that a lot of pharmaceutical companies that we work with, you know, you work for one of the larger ones, actually encourage employees to take sabbaticals and they offer that time, but so few people really do. I've heard it from a lot of people, they're like, no, I can't do that because what's gonna happen to my career?

Someone el is someone else gonna step in while I'm gone? Are they gonna manage while I'm gone? Ooh, what does that mean for me? Did any of those thoughts go through your mind when you decided to to take some time off?

Absolutely they did. In fact, I have to be honest with you in admitting that I was a year late in taking my sabbatical. So, so fortunate that Genentech as a company offers a sabbatical for employees every six years is six weeks of a sabbatical. And so, and so it's a wonderful offering. And I did I, I

Mm-hmm.

paused on that opportunity very much, you know, of course wanting to take the time off, but you think, now's not the time. It's never going to be a good time. And really for me, I think what I was feeling and what really drove me to take that pause was...

Mm.

Yeah. Yep.

I was feeling something very deep inside that said, no, not only do I just need to pause, but I really need to take some time to just sit back and reflect because I was feeling something and have been feeling something different about how I need to be as a leader, not being able to fully articulate what that is. But I will tell you, Sabine, I think

There's times in our lives where you know you start getting, maybe you get a little itch, you think it's time for a change, to pivot, and many times in our careers those moments are when you decide to shift your career or focus in a new direction or take a new path.

Mm.

For me, the feeling was not necessarily that I needed to take a career shift. I love what I do. I feel so fortunate to do the work that I do and work with the team that I have and be in this space around working directly with patients. That's very much a purpose driven. ⁓

Mm.

Mm.

But staying in that space and giving my best, really, I had to acknowledge that something was shifting inside of me and I needed to take a break and enjoy that time, but really reflect for myself. What was that about? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

And how did you that's so interesting to to hear because I think so many people, they don't listen to that inner voice or they don't, they're not in tune with what's going on inside. or they try to push it away. And is this something that you feel that you have worked on over your career? Would you have wouldn't you have listened to this voice twenty years ago?

No, no, no, no, of course. You fight on, you carry on, you go, go, go, you do what it takes, right? That's just you're establishing yourself. You're really working hard to be your very best. You're trying to really build your reputation and be acknowledged as a leader. And for me,

Go, go, go. Right.

Mm.

I mean, I have to admit very, very early on before I even started work, I can remember sitting around the circle with girlfriends when I was high school. And you know, you have that conversation about what is it that you want to be when you grow up? And you write on a little piece of paper, right? And then you fold it up and you say, okay, well, now let's, you know, put this away and then see. I mean, even when I was young, I knew...

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanted to help and lead others. I didn't know how or where or what that was going to be. But leadership has always been a core principle for me of how I want to develop myself and how I continuously want to improve. So for me, yeah, no, when I was young and early in my career,

Mm-hmm.

You're giving your all, you're doing your best. And the more that time has gone by and the more experience you get, I think the more in tune you get to yourself. I have certainly learned on my leadership journey as I'm continuously trying very hard to improve that next level leadership for me was really about allowing myself to be more vulnerable, right?

Mm. Ooh, the that big word. Yeah.

to really allow myself. Yeah, big word,

big heavy word. But in doing that, and in opening yourself and opening your space, you realize that this heart space, right? The head, the heart, right? That heart space of opening is so important. And so that's been really essential for me to be more in tune, to allow myself to feel those emotions in, you know,

Mm-hmm.

in presence with others, but also for myself personally too.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I and I I think that that's such and and the honesty around saying I would have never done that 20 years ago when that could have been a good time to do it as well. But we don't because you're right, you feel like, you know, we're climbing. We have to we if we if we step away, we're gonna be forgotten. And I think that that that I I believe is probably a concern for a lot of individuals that say, I cannot take a break or I can't take a sabbatical because if I'm gone.

What will happen? It won't work without me. Or will it work without me? And then will I not be relevant anymore?

I know about your first feeling is I can't step away because the team means me and you know the team right now that I have the opportunity to work with we're going through a pretty significant change and those conversations really started at the end of last year knowing that we were going to need to make a pivot shift and I thought my gosh I can't step away at this time I can't step I can't do this they need me and then I realized like

Mm-hmm.

No, actually the opportunity for my managers, the group leaders, right, that I have an opportunity to work with, the opportunity for them to lean into a space, to give them space, to be able to do that, to craft the future for the team, because what I really care more about, more than anything, and this was a part of the reflection in coming into this space,

Mm, yeah.

What I care about more is the success of the work that we do to support patients and people managing their health and managing their care in a sustainable way. It's not about me. It's not about the team that I, know, the department that was established, the team that's been shaped and formed. It's not about me and my leadership.

to do that while I'm glad that I've had the opportunity to do it. What I care about more is that it's sustainable and that it moves on far beyond, for much longer than when I will be here and be around. And so that opportunity to give space to them was so important for me and to let go and not have that sense that I have to have my fingers in everything and guide and control, but to really let go.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

and observe and watch what happened over that time that I was away in giving them that opportunity. We can also talk, you know, a part of this conversation is I realized for myself

that you mentioned it, as leaders we work hard, we do our best, we wanna be our best. Success is a very important thing and success is something very personal to each and every one of us. We put so much time and energy of who we are and how we think about ourselves as people based on the success that we have. In order for me to...

Yeah.

to let go and I'm still on a journey, right? This is still a journey for me. In order to achieve what's really important to me, I had to kick a success addiction. The addiction that we get because we become addicted to that kind of...

Mm.

Ooh.

Mm-hmm.

I as a leader want to be a success. I feel like I need to be standing in the front as you've said and leading in the way. And it's not about that. In order to stand in the middle and truly be and give opportunity, we have to make sure that we're letting go. And that isn't easy to do.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah, that is that is a difficult thing to do. Rebecca, right at the beginning before we hit record, we were like, you were like, my gosh, okay, am I gonna be ready for this? Well, here we go, because I've written down like 10 things, 10 directions we can go in. So I'm gonna try to structure those because things that you said, like because I want to I'd like to talk about the definition of what we define as success, because I think that that's a very important thing to look at. But before we do that, I

Taking a sabbatical is around first of all, it's like I I I kind of see three pieces of it. It's first of all making the decision to do it. So we've talked a bit about that where you said, All right, I'm gonna do this. You've reflected, something inside is happening. There's the phase of the sabbatical, and then there's like when you get back.

what happens there. So they're all of these different things, all of these different, I think, emotions, these what you're learning about yourself through each phase. So maybe let's let's walk through those. So you've shared a bit about the making the decision, looking and going, I can, I can't, I can't. Yes I can. I'm going to do this. Was there a trigger in that first phase that you finally said, okay, I'm just gonna do it regardless of where we are in the projects or what's happening within the organization?

Yeah.

There was, like I said, you evaluate your life, you know, personally, professionally, trying to find the right time. And as we've already said, you know, your initial reaction is, it's never a good time and we can't step away. And then two things. One, for me, it was this urge, this desire, this shift that was happening for me. You ignore it, you put it off, you carry on.

And then, you know, it's very true in life. I think that if you don't follow the path that's intended for you, whatever that is, and allow yourself to step into that path with faith that those

that guidance, that whatever that is, the spiritual journey that we're on, it's just gonna get louder. It gets louder, the voices in your head. They don't go away, they don't stop. And so, yeah, I really would, you know, I hear, I was listening to, you know, the voices inside of myself saying, no, you need to do this.

It's not gonna stop.

And so that was a real pivot for me. And then certainly, you know, I have a daughter who I adore, of course, and she's now in college and getting older. And you realize as well that the quality of time that you can spend in the moments before she takes off on her new path and journey was also important to me. And so I had to really allow myself

to step out of work and be with myself and be with the people that I'm closest to.

So how was that next step? How was it because your laptop's closed? Laptop closed final afternoon. And then there you go. Did you struggle to not check, to not look? How did you actually do this? Because we talk about these sabbaticals, right? We hear, take it, do it. But what are the actual steps? Do you turn off your emails? Do you what do you do when you say, I'm gonna take a break?

You yeah, first and foremost you think about okay. What is the really important?

Like work work, like what's the stuff that you just know needs to get done and how can you ensure that that gets done and gets managed? So of course there's the delegation of responsibility. And again, thinking of that as how do you not just do that in a delegation, but as an opportunity for others to step into spaces. And so there's that. And then there's the, mean, literally Sabine, when I crafted the very last action is that out

Mm-hmm.

office message that's what happens before you shut that computer and my out of office said no response to him like I am out no response to email and I like to include a little bit is a part of the message so people like realize like I am taking a break I'm stepping away and I will not be responding to messages and

and you know to to do that and just be with it and then yes the the laptop is closed of course you know i did have my i will you know have my work phone with me on the trip and if there should be any emergency or things that arose right i was reachable but i wasn't checking emails

Mm-hmm.

and scanning through. What I will tell you is that what I observed, and this was a part of the exercise that I wanted to do for myself, letting go of control and really giving space to others. I could see the movement, a movement that was happening within my team around this pivot direction that we needed to go.

It wasn't my space to comment or give direction. It was an opportunity for them to have conversation and dialogue with others. So I didn't enter into that space, but I could watch and I could see what was happening before my eyes and realize, I mean, with joy, you know, the trip to say, wow, wow, look, look what's happening. Look what

Ooh. Mm.

look what they're doing and have a sense of pride that they were continuing dialogue with the broader team, really thinking through what the future needed to look like. And that was really important and essential. That's what it was about, right? Of paving a path for them to pave the path.

Mm-hmm.

And then when I came back to be able to sit with them and just be and say, okay, if we believe this is really the direction and all of the thought that they've now put into that, how do I help support that? How do I help support it, not lead it? How do I help support that and bring the vision and reality to life to be able to share my experience? Because obviously, you know, I've gone through a number of changes over

Mm-hmm. Right.

within departments, right, over time.

And so what's the wisdom? What's the guidance I can share? And that's what I appreciate about this. The second curve, the pivot of my life is about sharing wisdom and sharing my experiences so that others can advance and others can carry that purpose forward.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that is so crucial. During your time away, did you journal? Did you write? How? Because you spoke about there was this inner dialogue that was happening and that said, okay, Rebecca, it's time to take this time off. And what did you do with the time? How because oftentimes we have so many things going on our head and it's a challenge to to sort it, to like

be in a library and go, okay, this goes here and to to get it all moving in a direction that feels good. Did you do anything in particular to kind of promote the process or yeah, what was that like?

I did.

I did. I think, well, first, just recognizing the first few weeks of sabbatical with family was really allowing myself to decompress from work and just experience the joy of being fully present. And I say that, right, because we all take vacation. We all get time away. Rarely.

⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Rarely can you truly step away and be present with others with no time pressure to just be and for me that was a settling in to experience joy and space and become in tune to myself and and and just be able to take life in

Yeah.

After a bit of that, you know, and then you might my daughter goes back to college, right? I I now have time I literally, you know, I am I'm a beach person, right?

A very unstructured portion of that was spending time on a beach, reading a book. So I highly recommend it's a book called From Strength to Strength, really thinking about your career in the second half of your life and what that looks like. And that was a really good inspiration for me to think about

the concept of what was this. And so that reference was a particularly good one. So I recommend that. It's by Arthur Brooks. And I'm happy to share the reference with anyone. And then I do, I journal. So I have this black leather, I'm looking at it, if I turn this way.

Yeah.

And it's not, I'm not a big journal. I will journal or I will say that, but when I have these times in my life, whether that's a career shift or a pivot, I do spend time with my book to write and reflect and in many colors of pens.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

categories right of what you do just to organize your thoughts because I am a contextualizer I Need to be able to process so I really needed that time to come into that space with myself Experience my emotions have some structured thought and then be able to pull that together in its essence For what it really means for me And what I wanted to you know want to

Mm-hmm.

now focus on, which I said is still a journey, but really important for me to be able to do that.

Interesting. And Rebecca, I've known you for quite some time, and I've and I the experience that I've had with you, also because we've volunteered, I think that's how our paths first cross is through the volunteering of the HBA, is that you're a very empowering woman, and I've always felt that. So, how did that enhance? Because it sounds like what you're describing is l watching your team, having them evolve, stepping back, letting them make decisions, and do you feel that?

That your empowerment and the way that you lead shifted? Did it enhance? What happened when you stepped back into your role?

It's interesting because I thank you for the compliment. really appreciate that. know empowering people is something that has always been really important to me and so I do hold that and because that my mantra has been and continues to be lifting others. What I realize as a part of my journey and this evolution

is lifting others in a way that I'm not the guide at the front of the boat, so to speak, I'm really...

sitting in the sea with them and allowing them to people to express themselves and really leaning even further into listening and to asking questions and helping to provide some guidance, some considerations.

but not feeling like you have to lead people on that journey. And that's a part of, I think, a leadership shift of, again, I don't have to be the leader, the one that directs or tells people. I'm much more in a position of,

letting go of my own ego. It's not about my success. And as I mentioned before, part of that is letting go of our egos and realizing that truly sustainability for the work we want to see continue to move forward. It isn't through

what we do, but it's what we can enable in others that will carry that forward. And so that is a pivot shift. And it's also a real reflection for me of how I have to let go of that. And that need that I need to be successful as a part of that.

Mm-hmm.

It's not about that. It's not about me being special, right? Me as a person being special. It's what I can do and support with others so that their light shines even brighter, that my pride and joy comes from watching others shine, not from what I've personally accomplished for myself.

Mm-hmm.

So would you say that your definition of success has changed?

It has. I'm really now much more mindful of defining success of what's being achieved by the people and teams around me and what my role is in order to enable that to happen. And so it is that pivot shift of

It's not about me. It's about what others accomplish, what others can do. And my sense of pride and joy comes from enabling that to happen, truly helping to guide, to remove barriers that may be in others' way.

And it's deeper than just mentoring others. I think Sabine, both you and I, know each other. me, we mentor many people. I will always have conversations around career and provide some guidance and support. But this is leaning in in a much deeper way and really looking in the mirror.

I think what I realized and a part of that inside reflection for me was again, back to this success perspective and then in order to be successful, I needed to be a good leader. I needed to shine as a leader and what I can accomplish and what I can do. And I...

And again, this special, really, you I wanted to bring in a very positive and good way, but I want to, you know, leadership and a style and approach that is special in who I am and what I value and what I represent. That doesn't go away. But it is that kind of the where's my own personal gut check and my own ego.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ in the space of this and I also realized that as we get older as we get older right in our careers working harder because as you achieve like as you your goal if your goal is success

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

and you achieve success in one aspect or something in your life, then the next thing as humans, who we are, it's always the next goalpost, the next thing we want to do, right? And that thing is going to be bigger than what we did before because the bar is always rising, right? It's just how we are. It's constant. It's what we do. And so we work and we work and we work harder and harder and harder. Well,

Yeah. Next one.

Mm-hmm.

Constantly. Mm. Yep.

You know, at what point do we recognize, wow, wait a minute, is this my purpose working harder and harder and harder and doing, setting this expectation on myself? Or is the time and the energy and all the hours that I put in, is that for the purpose of lifting others, right? What am I doing this for? What is my motivation?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

right in this space. That's, you know, just a real reflection, I think, for me of, again, that look in the mirror to say, really, what is this about? And what's the expectation that I'm putting on myself? And is that really what I want? And is that realistic? Or what is my true intent and purpose in life?

give to others and am I truly enabling that to happen.

Yeah. That's so true. And your success, you know, because we talk a lot about success and but it's gonna shine through the others. So if your teams, and I think that so often individuals can forget that, you it doesn't, you're right, it doesn't have to be you. It's what's happening around you. How are the teams shining? How are they lifting up? How are they lifting each other up? That's how you shine as a leader. And so often that's that's forgotten.

Mm-hmm. ⁓

It is, and it's a pivot shift. And one of the things that I will reflect on that I learned as a part of this book that I was reading, From Strength to Strength, right? And that was, it caught my attention when I saw it on the shelf because I thought, yeah, it's not about stepping back. It's not about saying, okay, I'm done. I'm not...

Mm.

I'm not moving towards retirement. I'm not making that stuff in that way. What I'm really trying to figure out and invest in is that how do I use my strength in the most meaningful way?

And I think there's references to, you know, in early parts of our career and our journeys, where we're learning, we're adaptable. It's a more fluid flow as we move from experiences and jobs and we learn and we're accumulating information. We're accumulating and learning truly. And then as you move into, you know, the second half of your career,

It's really a much more crystallized.

state of being because you've accumulated a lot of experiences. You've been able to learn, fall down, right, as we all do, get up, you know, see what works and what doesn't. And so at this point that strength is how do you take that, you know, if we use the word crystallized kind of state and allow the light to shine on that crystal and truly reflect

Mm, yes.

to others. And so I'm not in a building stage at this point. I'm not acquiring. It's about reflecting that and reflecting that on that light onto others in a really positive way and realizing that for myself. Again I just keep saying part of this is realizing it for yourself and acknowledging where you are.

Right.

on your own curves, so to speak, of leadership and that next pivot point of what leadership looks like.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so true. So many of us, I'll well speak for my I'll speak for myself. I have often had these ideas that I read a book, I have great ideas. I'm gonna actually pick this one up, that that you've shared. And that we read something and we're like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make sure I'm lifting other people up constantly. Well

I think every day brings struggles with it. As you mentioned, sometimes we fall down, sometimes we we potentially do something, you're like, and you catch yourself. You're like, that's not, that's not, that's you can fall back into old habits. And did you find that as as well? Is that something that you have to catch? And I think it's so important for listeners to understand that don't don't give up if you if every day just doesn't work perfectly and you're not constantly, you know, as you mentioned in the back.

pushing your team forward that you can catch yourself, I'm going to the front. no, I've got to get back here again. Did you do you see that as as part of the as the journey? as you've kind of stepped back into this after your sabbatical

Every week.

Every week. And I tell you, again, being really, know, trying to be really...

Thank you. Thank you

for saying that, Rebecca, because I think that that's important for others to hear that it is it it's it's work to do this.

Yeah.

It is work and it is grace, right? I just think, oh, we have to have so much grace with ourselves. And when I, again, being really in tune to working to be in tune with my feelings.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

What I acknowledge is those times of any given week where whatever happens, because something will always come up, something happens, and you realize you move from that position for anyone that has done the leadership profiles, and you realize the proactive leadership state or reactive leadership. Whenever I step back and I feel that reactive pulse or energy,

That's to me a trigger to say, whoa, why am I feeling this way? And if something's happening where I feel like, oh my gosh, I need to be leaning in, I need to protect, I need to control or step more into a red energy or zone, do I? Do I really? And a pause.

You know, I talk about the power of a pause and I say this because it is very much what I have to be willing to ingrain in myself, right, of the power of a pause to say, hmm, I feel this and is this, where's it coming from and do I really need to lean in? And sometimes absolutely yes, that is, but in a way that's still

gives the opportunity to others without controlling a situation or feeling like, now I need to step in and lead. And I will tell you the other thing. Yeah, here I am. Let me save the day. I mean, always with good intent, like I'm here to help you. Let me see what I can do. I am here to help you, but I'm here to help you. Right? Let me sit down beside you shoulder to shoulder. And really let's have a conversation. Let's talk. Let's see.

Yeah. Yeah. Like dun dun

Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Mm. Right.

what needs to be done or how we best can manage this situation. And yeah, if I need to stick an oar in the water and make a little shift and turn, then absolutely. But it is a very different pivot shift. And I will say the other commitment that I've made is personally investing in a coach who

focuses on Enneagram typing as well. I know my Enneagram type. I know I've invested in learning about that. And I've also, you know, recognized that as a part of that.

as a part of my style, what triggers me, what causes me to react in a certain way. And so taking time to invest with someone that can really help me on this journey, because you're right. Otherwise, you read the book, you take the notes, you go on day to day, and then maybe...

Mm-hmm.

maybe every six months, you you might go back and look at it or you might do any of your reflection. I can't let this one go. So I'm really, you know, you need accountability buddies and accountability partners in your life to help. And so I've also initiated that.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have that within your within your team? So say your your manager and who that leadership team, do you also talk about this with them about this type of leadership and what you're doing?

I ⁓

talk about it with them and I talk about, know, so for us as a group, we will be investing time now in going through our, as a team leadership profile and better exploring of how we are and how we relate to each other, which I think is really, really important. And also, absolutely, you you share with others and certainly with them what you're doing because

You do. Being open to feedback and acknowledging it's, you know, when somebody says to me, it's okay, I got it. For me to sit back and go, yes, you do. And yes, you do. And how can I help you? How can I support? Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? That might be important or relevant. Okay, great. Good. Yeah. Okay, that's good. Carry on.

Yeah, yeah, go.

Yeah, fantastic. I love that. Rebecca, one of the things, and I think I can think of so many re so many things about you is that I talk about legacy a lot. And legacy for me is lived every day. It's not something that you wait for at the end of your career. And if you had to share something that you would like to have

individual see your legacy as, what would that be?

wow, it's a really, you know, would think I would just have the answer for this right off of my lips here as I've invested time really thinking about it. My legacy and a part of my realization is, my legacy is if I step away and the people that I have touched,

The work that I have helped guide and direct carries on far beyond than I'm, than I feel that I have done good in the world around me. Have I made people better, right? Lifting others up as I said, is a mantra. So are people better and in a better place?

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

because I've been able to touch in some way and the work that we do that I am very passionate about in some way, you know, have I made it better? Have I opened space for my company, for the work that we do?

Mm-hmm.

to improve health. I'm a pharmacist by background, as you know, so this health is something that's important to me. And if one drop in the big water of life that I've made that better and there's been a ripple effect that has had a lasting impact, then that's my legacy to leave a lasting ripple on the world.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I can speak from the years that I've known you that I felt that. I felt you lifting up. You're so encouraging. And I've experienced that, that you open doors. You've opened doors for me. You look to see, hmm, what can I do? How can I help you? I think almost every conversation that I have with you, that always comes up. How can I help you? What can I do for you? And that is so important.

Because not everyone does that. So you can definitely know that that you've lifted me, you've inspired me. So thank you for that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is. Yes. Rebecca. Thanks. thanks for talking about ego. Thanks for being honest about how that what a challenge it is to come to step away from the grind and to take.

Thank you. I'm really happy to hear that. That means a lot to me. Yeah. That's success, right? That's what success is about.

it is to take this decision to take a sabbatical and to take some honest time to reflect on yourself and and to also share the way that you lift up others. And I think that that's one of the most one of the most important things for this from this conversation that I'm going to take away is that you don't have to lead the charge. That you leading the charge can actually push help pee your the leading the charge is pushing others to take this step.

And for laying that road for them to travel. And maybe you don't see where they're gonna go and where their successes are gonna come from. And that's part of what the season about. and for those that are listening, I'd like to leave you with a question. Where in your leadership or or in life, depending upon where you are, are you holding on when what's needed is for you to actually pave the path?

And step aside for others. And it's not because your contribution is finished at all. And I think that that's very clear in your journey that you're on. You're by no means finished. And because the most lasting ripples are sometimes the ones that you create by trusting someone else to carry them forward. So thank you for this conversation. As always, I'm inspired. I have ideas. I've got lots of notes that I've written down that I will continue in a book to read too.

Nope.

Yep.

And

it's just been such a pleasure. Thanks for spending. I think it's your Friday morning, right? Depend early in the morning on Friday. So thanks for spending it with me.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you so much Sabine. I've thoroughly thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you