Beyond the Ladder: A Conversation on Values, Integrity, and Leadership with Caroline & Philippe Clarinval

Hi, good morning, Caroline, Philippe. Thank you so much for taking the time this Sunday morning, having coffee with me, starting the day early and having a conversation about something that I'm very excited about, obviously Beyond the Ladder. And also the spontaneity. I love it. Caroline, we've done everything since we've met in January spontaneously and the results have always been amazing. So thank you both. And For all of those that don't know you, could you do a brief introduction about yourselves?

Caroline & Phillippe (00:31.704)
Good morning Sabine, it's a pleasure having you here and it's also lovely to be here with Philippe, my brother. Yes indeed, everything we've been doing so far just was pure creative ideas and moments where we just thought that we have something to share. so we have been working together also with the book and I was very happy to contribute a chapter to it.

Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (00:57.598)
And in a nutshell, I've been working for over 25 years in the humanitarian aid sector. I've been managing initially large scale relief operations and more recently county offices for the World Health Organization. So, yes, I'm a dedicated humanitarian aid worker. I've enjoyed my career so far. I'm a mom of two and I'm very proud of...

having been able to sort of manage the work side as well as raising two amazing kids.

Thank you. And Philippe, this is the first time actually, well, we've had a couple of very brief moments together so far, and you've also very spontaneously agreed to be on the podcast today. Thank you so much.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:54.594)
My pleasure. Thank you for having us. Yeah. So I'm Caroline's little brother. While she was dealing with prisons of wars and crisis areas, I was the little fella who traveled the world and managed hotels, luxury hotels. Yeah. Across the world, actually. So, hotelier at heart, but also...

Some people say the fairy godmother trying to develop people, creating experiences for guests and employees. And most recently I've diverted a bit into the advisory role where I advise executives on how to create a positive impact in their work and personal lives.

And that's such an important thing. So each of you do and have an impact on others, but in different worlds. And we're gonna get into that a bit more later, but also makes it for very interesting conversations. I can imagine dinner conversations at your house are very interesting.

Caroline & Phillippe (03:01.102)
Yes. I don't know, it feels natural. So despite the fact that we're coming from two very opposite work environments or even lifestyles, I don't know, it still seems natural in a way. Yeah. We love to listen to each other's stories because they couldn't be more diverse, but still we can relate to them.

Yeah, definitely.

Right.

Caroline & Phillippe (03:27.79)
Well, most of the time Caroline can relate to mine because she has stayed in a hotel. I've never seen her in exactly deserts and areas of the world where people get bombed and stuff like that. So I cannot relate to that. yeah, it's always very intriguing and mind boggling to listen to her, not that she shares too eagerly what she lives because most of

But you can't.

Caroline & Phillippe (03:57.486)
and people don't really understand what she goes through. So sometimes I guess I have to ask a bit more, what is this and how is it, and try to find the parallels, and even knowing that I won't understand anything.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. I think it's interesting when we look at titles and what people do, we have these we have biases around those or we have ideas of what we think they are. And so when you think of somebody that works or I certainly did before I had conversations with Caroline, a WHO worker, they just kind of gallivant in different countries and just have nice conversations with people. But there's much more behind it. And yeah, and it's very impactful.

Caroline & Phillippe (04:36.334)
Thank

Caroline & Phillippe (04:39.788)
Yeah, you know, when she talked about diplomacy, because a huge chunk of her job is diplomacy, and I tend to be not the most diplomatic person. And so I can learn from her. You know, I have a t-shirt that I can't show under this shirt. So this is how it happened that we both are dressed in blue. this is really improvised. But yeah, it's because...

Hahaha

I must have listened as well.

Caroline & Phillippe (05:09.706)
It has a message on it and she says, well, you know, I'm still associated with, that company or that organization and that you shouldn't show. You know, she needs to be impartial. Exactly. So she's very mindful about, about what she does. And that's what I learned also is to be more like, you know, be smart.

Yeah. So you're like, don't post that. Don't do that. Don't wear that.

Yeah, be smart.

Caroline & Phillippe (05:35.138)
I might try to be more daring every once in a while. It often backfires.

Yeah. I don't know. Your daring stories are quite successful from what I've heard. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (05:46.488)
It always comes with a price tag. Yes it does.

That's true. That's true. What's interesting about today's conversation is that since the book is just recently out, so that is kind of the premise of what we're going to be talking about today is that I just sent it to you and you just arrived in Switzerland. So I arrived at home and we had a catch up call and you said, oh, Philippe just picked up the book and he was like, what's this? Why is this just for women?

I was like, huh, that's an interesting point. So let's have a podcast about it. And you popped your head in and said, OK, let's go. So I think that that's a really interesting comment. My husband has said that as well. He's like, why is this just for women? And I think it's going to be interesting to dive into some of the chapters. You've had a chance to look at them and to see, know, I've obviously I've taken it from a female perspective. But what fits for both what's what's non-gender and what is more

focused on certain genders. So what made you say that? And as you started to dive in, did you see it to be more non-gender or did you see the female aspect?

Caroline & Phillippe (06:56.098)
Yeah, just to give a little context and as a preliminary remark, I love or I like your husband already. Because we think alike. The context, imagine another Sunday morning where we're sitting on the sofa or in this setting, sipping coffee. And then she was talking about you and about the web conference where that you moderate and the relationship that you have. And then she said, well,

Hahaha

You

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (07:26.42)
lovely Sabine, sent me these two books and she gave it this one and it looks like a book club actually. It says on the cover a women's career guide to clarity, impact and legacy. So this, I must admit it made me cringe first because I thought

Hmm, the workbook, yeah.

You

Sabine's book club.

Okay.

Caroline & Phillippe (07:56.064)
Why women? Yeah? And then I went through the table of content and I said, well, hang on. This is something that really speaks to me as well. And this is also part of the work that I'm doing with clients or with partners, because everybody needs to have some clarity, men and women alike. And that is the reason why I had this remark. It's not only for women. Just to say how rich this book can be. Yeah? But.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, true.

Caroline & Phillippe (08:25.74)
I understand that perhaps women have another approach to their career or getting clarity and getting confidence or self-advocacy in order to be successful in their careers. So that was the reason why I had this remark like it's anyone's career guide to clarity, impact and legacy.

Mmm.

Yeah, interesting, And I think it'll be when we look at some of the perspectives as well. But I'm really curious now, Caroline, what was it like for you to read your story or stories in the book? Because they're actually.

Caroline & Phillippe (09:03.31)
It's funny, I didn't read them again. I read the other chapters. But what I did is that I gave it to my son, said, you need to read that. So I'll see, I'm looking forward to receiving his feedback. So I was looking at how does my story fit into the others and how can they actually

You didn't.

Yeah

Caroline & Phillippe (09:30.542)
be complementary. And as I was reading the other chapters, I was like, yeah, I could have said that. And yes, this is spot on too. And yes, here. Oh, yeah. Why did I not think of this? And I really liked that many of these messages can easily be transposed to any other life or work environment, whether it is male or female.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (10:00.684)
Regarding why do I find it interesting for me to look at it in its entirety is to just remind myself like so you've got your stories to tell but then there are many other stories that are just as significant for me for instance or stories that get me thinking stories that or the little chapters that

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (10:28.322)
get me to reflect and I then ask myself okay under whatever heading what would I put there? Is there anything that I would add? Do I have anything to say or not at all? And I think this is where this book reads so easily and you can open it in any page and just read out of it and it's an opportunity to self-reflect.

I think that's the whole exercise also with the workbook. I find workbooks always very demanding because, or even notebooks, I'm not the person that easily scribbles down my thoughts because they then seem to be more restrictive.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Mmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (11:22.762)
I might not necessarily find the way and how I want to express my thoughts initially and put them down. But then I thought, let's give it a try. And I think it's a very nice way of stimulating your thoughts overall. It's a good structure. It forces you to think slightly differently and to have everything that you have in your brain put it through your hand on a piece of paper. It gives structure and then you start

Yeah, yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (11:52.206)
you know, thinking about words again and then one idea leads you to another area. So it's very valuable.

Yeah. Yeah, these words are, it's interesting. worked with a coach once, Mary Morrison, and she talks about words are drugs and drugs and it can either be in a very good way or very negative way. So it is, you're right. It's like words are those drugs. And if you kind of reflect on them and take them in and they're obviously positive words and words that cause positive reflection can do a very, can have just such an internal impact to read them again and to write them again. And this repetitiveness.

I think is also really important. Okay, well, good. Well, it's good. This is the first time that I'm hearing the feedback. So it's really nice to hear because that it causes reflection is definitely a key and the stories is a key. And it's nice to hear that you two actually listen to each other's stories. What you said, know, over a dinner over coffee or a glass of wine, wherever you're you're sharing stories, because I can imagine I think that that's what we spend too little time doing sometimes is listening to each other's stories because we can also take those

Yeah, situations and instances and bring him into another world and they can you can share those with someone else in a different and maybe in a bit of a different context and it can have a big impact. So that's great that you two already do that.

Caroline & Phillippe (13:15.406)
So there's something that I always admire, that when Philippe talks about leadership, and we both have leadership roles, when he talks about it, I try to relate to what he says and I try to then draw parallels to what would that mean in my environment. But then I come in always with that difficulty, but I'm a woman.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (13:40.494)
He looks at this or the way he phrases things or the way he approaches issues are more male. And then I'm like, okay, can I translate it in the same way for my role? And often I'm like, no, I can't. So even if this book is applicable to both genders, I still think that there's a nuance on how we actually then...

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (14:08.21)
are managing situations and I find that very interesting. So I'm always listening to him carefully and then I'm transposing it but maybe it's a bias, maybe I don't have to do that, maybe I don't have to bog myself down in the role of a female leader. So I don't know, that's just a thought. I think you are biased slightly, like everybody is biased. Yeah, but don't think

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like, we all are. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (14:37.686)
that I'm speaking like a German panzer when I'm in a leadership role. I try to think about also how is it perceived. So first you have to create the context or the environment where everybody feels safe and seen and respected. So I think that is the preliminary role of a leader. And then you think

Hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (15:06.956)
what is the feeling and the message that I want to bring across? And that is where neuroscience kicks in. I always think which part of the brain do I want to stimulate in the other person? So do I want to stimulate the prefrontal cortex where we are in a trusting relationship or in a creating relationship? Or do I want to stimulate the amygdala where the person leaves the office crying and hating me afterwards?

That's big decision to make when you're working in the coaching environment.

Caroline & Phillippe (15:36.78)
So.

Caroline & Phillippe (15:40.526)
Exactly. So imagine this conversation that we have now online. This is a very constructive and creative conversation that we have. So I can feel my oxytocin rushing through my body already. And that should, in my opinion, be regardless if you're a woman or if you're a man, because it's always about the feeling of the person that you have on the other side.

Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (16:11.222)
Yeah. Whether it's a male or a woman or a man wording the comments, because women can be equally hurtful as men. Yeah. So.

True, absolutely. You use the word safe environment and that's really interesting because we, know in a lot of the volunteer work that I do and a lot of the trainings, we talk about creating the safe environment and it's mostly that I'm in that with women. And it's interesting for you to say that as well. it's this, again, it's a bias that I have in my head that I think, men go into sessions and they don't need that safe space. They just go in and they can.

deal with any kind of feedback and deal with things. So it's interesting to hear you say that. So you experience the same regardless if it's male, female, mixed, whatever, that safe environment is key.

Caroline & Phillippe (17:01.526)
Absolutely. I've had, I've had situation where I was talked at and where I hated the guts of the person in front of me because we are all wired in a similar way. It's just perhaps the biases that kick in where that influences the consequences afterwards.

And then if we kind of keep going with that, one of the things I wanted to talk about is the support that we need as men, women, or again, is it regardless of the gender that we have. And Caroline, you've got a big, long, wonderful career journey that you've had. And if you think about the support that you've sought from other people, either be it mentorship or sometimes you have sponsors within organizations that really watch out for you and help.

Make sure that your voice is heard when you're not in the room or coaches. How have you incorporated that into your career? Philippe, I'd be interested to hear if you have something similar or if you've had a different approach and the support that you've sought.

Caroline & Phillippe (18:13.336)
So I think there are three takes of that. One is to make sure, so I tried over the time, depending on the situation that I was confronted with, to either rely on my family and friends. Then that depended on how personal the topic was to me, so more family related issues were discussed and addressed within that circle. Then...

Hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (18:40.822)
A big role of influence was academic colleagues, more specifically supervisors. irrespective of the degree that I was in, there was always the one or the other professor that was very inspiring and did adopt that role as a mentor. And oftentimes I think they were not even aware of that. They were actually very inspiring to myself. because I...

Mmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (19:09.838)
There were opportunities where I didn't have the... there were moments where I didn't have the opportunity to thank them for actually having played that role. And then in the work environment, obviously their colleagues from that environment that are very inspiring. And that's what I love about this job is that thanks to this job I have access to very intelligent colleagues,

whether it's from within the organization or from within governments with which we're working or across the diplomatic community. So there's always this one or the other or many, many times there are several people that are just fascinatingly smart and inspiring. And I think it's just the idea is to know when to who reach out to whom.

Mm, yep.

Caroline & Phillippe (20:05.954)
And I think that is something that over the years I have learned and tried to improve. At the same time when I listen to Philippe and how he does it with his networks, I believe that men have a greater tendency of creating better and stronger alliances than women. And I think it's something that is better established. I think for women it's something rather new.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (20:34.732)
And we've had that discussion, Sabine, about how can we support each other. We still need an emphasis on how we can strengthen women. But when it comes to the support that I've asked for, that was irrespective of the gender.

Mm-hmm.

each other.

Caroline & Phillippe (20:54.274)
It was more the human that mattered.

the human piece, yeah. Yeah, but it's knowing to ask too, to go and to ask for the support that you need. I think it's such an interesting point too about this, mentorship and what you've experienced. And I think that that again is so important that we're all aware of that, that what we do, you know, in the book I talk about legacy and legacy is not something to be talked about, you know, on your deathbed. Legacy is like, it's today and it's now. And that

Caroline & Phillippe (20:59.757)
Yes.

Caroline & Phillippe (21:19.341)
out.

these mentors and these people that you've worked with had an impact on you. And those are the things that I think are so critical that people think about. It's taking the time to talk to somebody. It's when someone calls and asks for support that you're there for them. It's all of those extra steps. That's what building this legacy is about. And it's so important that what you said, I jotted it down, is that some of them weren't even aware of what they were doing. And...

That's just a good reminder for all of us to think about how we engage with people and interact.

Caroline & Phillippe (21:56.494)
See how structured she is? She is. You know? And I thought, what am I gonna say? Well, congratulations. So, what I can say is, you know, 25 years or so, no more, no, 30 years ago.

HAHAHAHA

BAM!

EEEH

Caroline & Phillippe (22:26.7)
I was supposed to become a dentist and I hated the idea. And I told my dad or our dad that I wanted to shift into another direction, into hospitality. And he had no idea or we had no relationship with the world of hospitality. I want to say this, I had no sponsor or no mentor at all from the beginning. And I would even argue that I chose the wrong school to do my bachelor's degree. But anyway.

Right.

Caroline & Phillippe (22:55.342)
Um, that has nothing to do with that, but it has a relationship with the mentorship because, um, this world is, is a large network and as soon as you're in, then you're in. And, uh, obviously I wasn't in from the onset. So it was a lot of hard work to establish my own credibility. Yeah. So, um, the first real job was in Chicago and that is where I looked at the hotel. It was, it was huge hotel, 1,800 rooms.

And I really looked at it as a network of people and not as an ensemble of silos or departments. And I love the fact that I got along with the people from sales or food and beverage or the bell man or the engineers or the housekeeper, because I realized that the quality of the organization depends on the quality of the relationships that you have between people.

Mm-hmm.

All

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (23:54.254)
And the quality of the relationship depends on the quality of the conversations that you have. So how do you make them feel? So that was 25 years ago and it has shaped the way I try to interact with people immensely. how do you create value to them and how do you build that legacy? What do people say

Mm. Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (24:23.244)
behind your back? And I would even argue that what would the people that you like or that you respect say about your back, about you behind your back, not those that you think, well, I wouldn't take advice from them anyway, so they can say whatever they want. But it's true. Yeah. There are those people where you say, you know, you know, don't

Yeah.

Whatever.

Caroline & Phillippe (24:52.332)
don't resonate, we don't have the same values, we don't have the same vision. That's fine, they have theirs. But the people with whom you resonate, what do they say? The ones that you respect for who they are, not necessarily for what they are, but for who they are, what do they say about you? That is very important to me. And as you say, you build your legacy now. It's not in 10 years.

Mmm?

It is, yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (25:21.6)
Often people think, well, I'm going to have it my way and look for myself first. And then I worry about, about the legacy. But that's late. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking this morning about, about the, the, the concept of legacy and two years ago or so there was a famous

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's totally too late. Yeah, totally too late.

Caroline & Phillippe (25:50.124)
German chef who passed away. And I was almost ashamed to say, well done, good riddance, one less. Yeah. You shouldn't think about that. Yeah. But I think people should behave in a way that nobody thinks that, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Yep, they absolutely should. And we forget about it. We forget about the curtness, those snippy little comments that can be made. And those can be really hurtful. And yeah, and that's why I think it is so important to think about legacy and everyday and what we do. And it's interesting.

Caroline & Phillippe (26:16.854)
Yes. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (26:24.27)
Because what Caroline said is people don't realize the impact that they have sometimes. It can be just a look. It can be a positive comment when a person needs it. It can be comfort. It can be compassion. It can be empathy. And sometimes we think, well, really, did I say that? Yeah. And it meant the world to them. so, yeah, we, think we have to be more aware.

Mm-hmm, yep.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (26:54.382)
of the impact that we can have on other people's lives.

Yeah, And just pausing a bit. think, you know, our work, everything that we do is just like, you're like light speed. You know, you feel like everything is just flying by and just taking that time and taking a pause and being there for somebody. If they call, don't look at the phone, go, I just don't have time right now. Pick it up. And how often do we do that? Or how often are we on calls and there are other things open and you're reading an email and the person's talking to you. And I think that there's such what what seem minuscule

can really have a big impact is that when you're there and you're really listening, really listening to someone. And you mentioned what people say about you, and there's a really nice exercise to do that we encourage, I've done in some workshops, where you actually ask your colleagues and your manager, and you ask them for three words to describe you. And that is just such a nice thing, and it's so interesting. So when we do it with people, they're very uncomfortable. Often they don't like,

Most people don't like talking about themselves. Obviously there are some that really do and others kind of the normal people like, they're not comfortable saying very positive things about themselves. So when you get them to do that with others, it's this beautiful thing. And then when you watch them say those words, because then you say, so share with share with everyone here what these people said about you and they talk about it. It's like they their their facial expressions change. They shine. It's just such a beautiful thing to do.

So, I encourage everyone to go and ask people, do you, yeah, how would you describe me? And that's not even like, what do you think about me, but how would you describe me? It's also very, it's a more simple question, I think, to use. So, those are good ways to hear what people think about you.

What do you think? What do you think about your brother? Actually, I was going to do this at the end, but we can do it now, actually, since we're talking about it. So if you were to describe your brother in a sentence, what would it be? Or maybe you can say three, three sentences.

Caroline & Phillippe (28:49.48)
Thank you.

Caroline & Phillippe (28:57.23)
Childhood of memories.

god. It will not go to the child at birth.

Philippe is the dearest person to me. I know him as... You know, when you've got your sibling, you've grown up together, you know them so well, you know where they come from. I know...

what his soul is like and I also know how I should interact with him in order to make sure that he's feeling well because that's the whole purpose is to make Philippe feel good when I'm around. And an example, if I may, Philippe was born with sort of a bubble.

He was born in a bubble. So Philippe dreams he's in his bubble and I see sometimes people pooking that bubble. And I try not to do that. I try to just respect him in his environment, in his thoughts. Dream on. To also always put things back into context, right? From where we come, from what is our history and what is our... Because we have two histories. One is...

Ha ha ha ha!

Mm.

Caroline & Phillippe (30:25.194)
our common history as brother and sister for the moments that we have spent together and ultimately we haven't seen each other that much because we were both most of the time abroad. But then it's also the separate histories that we have and that shape us as well and the respect that we carry towards each other for all of the things that have made us us and to just never ever be judgmental.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (30:55.176)
And to just, I haven't described who he is to me, but he's the most precious person I have next to my two kids. Right? It's as simple as that. And I think it's more about also, is extremely reliable. Whatever happens, he'll always be there. During the most difficult times in my life, he was there. And he was there on top of that with a sense of humor,

Yeah.

huh.

Caroline & Phillippe (31:24.928)
making it all look easier than what it was. then you have, so you do have this amazing sense of humor. And otherwise, yeah, you've just always been there. And I thank you for that. We have only one family. Yes.

Okay, what about you? What do you say about Caroline? How do you describe?

Caroline & Phillippe (31:48.75)
So she's probably the most resilient person that I know. In face of adversity, she's extremely courageous, smart. She keeps a perspective, always. She's the diplomat in the family.

Mm.

Caroline & Phillippe (32:16.686)
Which you would never have thought I ever would be, yeah? Let's be very clear. I was always the old soul. Then somehow life has taken a path that I didn't anticipate. Yeah, also extremely reliable in times of adversity, not only towards other populations, but also towards the people who are closest to her.

Good sense of humor and laughter that is unparalleled. Yeah. It would wake the dead, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, so I can just imagine the hardship that she's gone through in her professional career, but also in the personal

Hahaha!

That's very good attribute to have.

Caroline & Phillippe (33:16.14)
life and that is really really impressive. Being able to to get back up that is that is something that is inspiring because people sometimes they're just like they're in their misery and they just seek the compassion but no she's she's you know come on let's go get get stuff done yeah. yeah

Mmm.

go. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. And also the vulnerability, I think to share your stories and especially to share the video on also on violence. mean, that was a very, very impactful video that I that I saw and that you opened yourself up and shared the importance of of the awareness and talking about a very difficult, difficult subject. So think that that's incredible to open up about things like that and challenges.

Caroline & Phillippe (34:07.476)
I never looked at it from that angle. People after that, told me, how courageous and that. I don't think that was courageous. I just thought it was an other opportunity to highlight that even though all individuals, be it men or women, we might go through hardships, that there is always...

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (34:35.566)
life thereafter and we always find a way out. that it's not because life throws a curveball at us that there is no way forward. And I think it's also to show that yes, we all have our difficult moments and what I appreciate the most is that people can't tell. You know, most of the times we can't

Hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (35:04.909)
see the difficult or the hardships people are going through just by looking at them. And that's why when I approach someone I try to be as considerate as possible and to always put it into perspective not necessarily knowing where they're coming from or what they're going through at the moment or what they've been through in their lives. And I think it gives us a bit more of a gentle approach but without Philippe I wouldn't have been able to do it. There's no one.

True.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (35:34.574)
I wouldn't have. And I knew that there's always someone there. And I think it can be a family member, can be a friend, can be someone at work all of a sudden. I knew that he would be there for me, but I didn't know to what degree he would be able to actually support us. And still doing it, right? Still doing it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, nice!

Caroline & Phillippe (35:58.99)
Sometimes you get surprised to see who is there for you in times of hardship and sometimes disappointment, but sometimes it's not a really good surprise. When you're talking about courage, it's not something that you do, it's something that you are. So that's the reason why you didn't realize it, how courageous you were. You know, it's when you're standing up for people, that's just second nature.

Yeah, that's true. Hmm. Yep, it is.

Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (36:27.338)
It's because that is who you are. That's the sense of fairness. It's not calculated. It's not, I have to be courageous now because it's in my job description. It's because you have to be that's what you are. Exactly. Exactly. And that is in regardless of the work that you do is as soon as you are in a leadership role, like she is, like I am, you have to be able to stand up for the weaker. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Tick. Yeah.

Well, you should, I would say, but not everyone does. And I think that that's the difference. Yeah, exactly. that's what I think that that's the piece around being a strong leader is doing that and being there for those others and thinking about. That's why I actually start the book also with values, because I think what you two are really talking about are values. And you can hear also the way that you were raised. And it's interesting to

Caroline & Phillippe (37:01.046)
Everything I was riding on the wave, you know, that's what I'm sometimes.

that although you both have quite separate career paths, mean, it must be really interesting. Like we were talking about coffee conversations, right? But your core and how you were raised and these values are just so key in how you do each of your jobs.

Caroline & Phillippe (37:32.585)
Coming over.

Caroline & Phillippe (37:51.234)
Yes.

Oops, think. OK. Sorry, you were frozen. were you were frozen for a second. Sorry.

Caroline & Phillippe (37:59.928)
So We're both saying yes, indeed, I think, and we're also trying to transmit this. We're not only trying to transmit it within the family, but also around ourselves or the people we work with. For example, personally, in the humanitarian context, we're always asked to define the numbers of people that benefit from whatever it is that we do. And if you look at...

large-scale humanitarian programs I could come up with the numbers of millions, but bottom line, these are not the people that I believe that I have an influence on when we look at values or sharing values or sharing experience etc. It's just the people that I work with that are in my proximity. These are the direct beneficiaries or that I try to, where I try to share some experience or

with whom I try to share joint values or we try to define the set of values in which we want to operate. But the number is rather small. The number of people that you work with or the number of values? No, the number of people that I work with on whom I have a direct impact. I can testify. the same for you because basically in the hotel, yes.

Yeah, definitely. And I can confirm that. I know a few of her core team. Yeah. And I see how they resonate with her because they have the clarity about her values where she's uncompromisable. But it's necessary to talk about it so that you understand, OK, well, this is the compass. This is how we work. And that's...

Hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (39:53.514)
It's necessary. It's like having the latest update on your DOS system. Because nobody likes to have flip-flopping leaders.

Yeah, it totally is.

No, absolutely not. And you can change and evolve, but it should be fairly steady. I think that that's the difference is that, know, and one of the ideas that I had also with the book is to have something that is with you throughout your career because we do evolve and we do grow. However, our values, they may shift. Maybe you have a little bit of a different area that you want to focus on, but.

the core should be the same. And that's why I think it's also important to write those down and what are they and to reflect on them because those then you can carry on to other people. For some people it's very natural and it's just as you two have talked about it's that how you were raised, how you grew up, the environment that you have. And it feels very natural to carry on those values.

But not for everyone. I really wonder how many people have actually sat down and go, wow, what kind of values do I live by? And do they reflect in what I do and the people that I work with and how I engage with people every day?

Caroline & Phillippe (41:10.062)
I love to have this conversation and often they come up with teamwork, with harmony, with, you know...

Mmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (41:22.794)
excellence, precision and stuff like that. And we do this exercise by writing down 10 values. Okay. Then I said, reduce it to five. And then it becomes, stretch out the ones that are not so important and then reduce it to three. Yeah. And that is really the core, just what you say is, and most of the time they operate by it. And then I asked, well, would you be willing to tattoo those on your chest?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (41:52.142)
You know, you know, this is because that is then really what makes you so singular. And, and when Caroline is talking about her values with her team, it gives them clarity, but it makes them also think about their own. And this is why I love your book is because you put such an emphasis on, the values. And also I feel that.

That's it. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (42:20.736)
It's in times of hardship or in crisis or like in those defining moments where your values surface and where they get tested. Yeah. Are you really so uncompromisable with those values? And once they get tested, it shapes the way that you move forward or the way that you lead your team or the way that you shape your organization. Yeah. And sometimes it's just a matter of if they are being hurt.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yes. Yep.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

Caroline & Phillippe (42:50.316)
Yeah. This is when you pull the plug. This is when you say, no, not with me. You know, it's interesting point because he's in the full profit business. I'm in the non-profit business. And when I listened to Philippe, it's never about generating profit. It's always about generating a positive experience, whether it is for the people you work with or whether it is the guests that you have.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yep, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (43:20.086)
It's always about how can I improve the quality of the time that we have together now. And that is then very strongly values based. Because profit comes afterwards.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely, it trickles through, but it does come after that. But it's also for what you do, Caroline, even though it is a non-for-profit, there still has to be finances. mean, there's still, you you can't survive with nothing. So you still have to build an environment that where people or organizations or governments input financially.

Caroline & Phillippe (43:52.718)
I think it's because the humanitarian sector is based on principles, everybody assumes that we share the same values and I don't think we do. So every individual comes into that business, into that area of work with their own intrinsic motivation and I think the work that I then have to do is to make sure that we align.

Mm. Yeah, that alignment word. Yeah. Mm.

Caroline & Phillippe (44:20.748)
to a shared vision, but to also leave room for individuals to promote certain personal values that are more important for them. So I think we have to define a certain set of core values that we all sort of agree to on how we will be working together or what is the impact that we want to have, but to also leave a lot of room for individual freedoms.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (44:48.039)
and for people to be able to just be themselves as well as to also promote and foster that.

Yeah. And I loved what you said around really getting to the core. And that's so critical. Like these the main the main your main values really going to live by. And are you going to do it in times of crisis? Because when everything's great and the sun shining and you know, then it's like, oh, yeah, these are my values and I live by them. But when it gets difficult, that's the challenge. And that's where you need to really reflect on yourself and be critical with yourself and go, hmm, OK, am I going to live this way now?

Because oftentimes that's when it's difficult and that's when it's easy for us to get to sidestep those values and not necessarily step in or not say something in a situation where your voice needs to be raised and to take care of other individuals and to put yourself aside for those. So I think that that's just such an important point. And I hope that that's really something that people take away from this conversation as well. Let's really look at those.

Caroline & Phillippe (45:34.04)
Yes.

and think about can you really live by them and will you step up if those values are challenged.

Caroline & Phillippe (46:02.272)
Yes, because they are... it comes at a cost sometimes.

Yeah, it can. Yeah, it can come at a significant cost. Definitely. I I've had people talk to people about that they don't really feel comfortable and don't feel the values with the companies that they work for, but they're not willing to make a change. So they do compromise. And you have to look at each individual situation, but those are those tough decisions that you have to make. I work in an organization or can I be a part of it? Or if I'm going to stay.

Caroline & Phillippe (46:12.11)
you

Am I going to try to do something to push these values through and to try to make a change within the organization?

Caroline & Phillippe (46:39.086)
about it.

Caroline & Phillippe (46:43.64)
I mean, sometimes we can't make a change at the level of the entire organization. So we very rarely have that level of power. But I believe that as individuals, we can still influence the change in a smaller circle. And that opportunity everybody has. Yeah. And everybody's watching. you will always have the impact on those people who observe and whom you inspire. Because...

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Everybody can. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep.

Caroline & Phillippe (47:12.686)
when you act in alignment with your values and your purpose, and you're willing to take the consequences, people will be inspired to do the same, even if you can't change the whole organization. So it's very interesting that you say that, because I remember a sentence my dad told me about a year before he...

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Exactly.

Caroline & Phillippe (47:42.094)
passed away. He had that one comment, said in French, arrondis-toi ma fille. Round yourself up a little more, my daughter.

And I think you had a very valid point, because even though we might stand very firmly for whatever we believe in or whatever you think is right, I think there are moments where it's also good that we round those edges a little. But it requires a lot of thinking for us to understand when do we stand our ground firmly and for what reasons.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (48:25.642)
And when are we ready to round ourselves a little bit more and to let go? And I think that comes with age.

Yep. Yep.

Yeah, shoe. I feel well rounded. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, for some people.

Caroline & Phillippe (48:38.286)
Perhaps I'm still the young one and that sounds a bit too old. Being too round, that sounds totally like him. But perhaps it's also dangerous to be too round. Sometimes a few edges. No, he said, arrondis-toi.

A peu. Just a little bit. Choose your practice wise, we would say. When does it make sense?

Yeah, a little bit. That tiny bit of compromise. That's what it is. It's when to compromise and when to hold firm. Yeah, that's so true. Do you think that? Yeah, exactly. And speaking of your dad, so you both so obviously, Caroline, you live in a world of risk and you've taken a lot of risks in making decisions about where to go, which regions to move in and also the jobs,

within the countries. And Philippe, would you say that you've also taken similar risks? Did that come also from your father, from your mother? Is that common between the two of you?

Caroline & Phillippe (49:52.63)
I think I got more the uncompromising aspect from the mother. That's what Caroline says. Our father was very discreet and very round and almost a feng shui kind of guy. And my mother was more outspoken. Of course, I haven't taken the same life threatening risks as Caroline. I have never been in a...

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (50:19.666)
bulletproof vest with helmets and stuff like that. No, I'm in the marble lobbies. Or in the seminar rooms. The threat is different. The threat is more... Yeah, exactly. The boardroom. Exactly. My threats come from the board members. But still, yes, there are moments when you think, well, okay, your paycheck is on the line.

Different risks. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (50:49.358)
And somehow your material survival, let's put it dramatically, but still that's just money, or it's just career. But your integrity should be never compromised. And there have been situations where I had to say no, because I knew deep down that yes, it will...

Right.

Caroline & Phillippe (51:18.648)
cost me my job, but still it felt good. It was like, yes, my fiancé, she told me, yeah, you got your low back. Yeah, because you said don't, I can't say the word, don't joke with my integrity twice. And integrity is one of core values. This is an attack on me. If you think this of me,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yep.

Caroline & Phillippe (51:48.066)
That is where I draw the line. This is not okay. Yeah. And it's always a question of where you draw the line, of course. You're not putting the bar so low that you go through life like a child. But yeah, you know, when...

Yeah.

Right.

That they're like, yeah, That's very true.

Caroline & Phillippe (52:09.974)
I always think what would...

An ill-willing journalist write about you if he heard the story that you're just in now. And how do you act? What do you want to see featured in the newspaper about you?

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Ooh, that's a nice one too. Yeah, what would my headline look if I did this? Yeah, I like that.

Caroline & Phillippe (52:38.344)
Exactly, exactly. Are you willing to accept things that are ethically totally repulsive or not? But you did the same Sabine, no? You made also these decisions that in your life all of a sudden you made drastic change.

Yep. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I always ask myself also, what if I don't do something? So that's my question. Not what if, what if, but what if I don't do this? Well, how will my life be impacted or how will things be different? And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What if I don't? Yep. So that's how, that's how I go. That's how I make decisions too. And I've made, yeah, when we started the company, we also had, uh,

Caroline & Phillippe (53:07.606)
It's written in the book.

some jobs where there were some morally dodgy questions about where we were recruiting candidates. And the client said, we need people with a different skin color.

Caroline & Phillippe (53:36.749)
Oops.

Yeah. And that was also, you know, we just started, we have employees and like, shit. Okay. But we can't do this. So we had to cancel the contract. We just can't be part of something like this. And yeah, I think obviously we're still around. So, so those decisions were good ones, but you just can't, you just can't, you can't, I can't, I always think like, I have to look in the mirror and I just can't look at myself if I go along with this. Yeah.

completely what I feel are immoral.

Caroline & Phillippe (54:08.654)
And when you decided to write the book, was the... you just said that what if I don't do it? So what was your thought behind what if I don't write this book?

Hmm, What if I don't?

All these beautiful stories aren't going to be heard. So for me, a big part of the book was I wanted, there's so many fantastic women and there are a lot of good men too, but in this situation, there's, it's the women. And I just heard so many amazing stories. And that's what was also kind of the premise to the book is that I wanted to bring, I didn't want to just write a book on just on these topics. I wanted to incorporate stories.

And I thought, if I don't do this, all of these amazing stories aren't going to be heard. And I wanted to keep them alive. I wanted to keep people alive. My mom's in the book too. And I was like, what a cool way that I can kind of keep her legacy moving forward and my sisters. And that was a very exciting part for me is to share these stories. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (55:15.128)
So how about for your second book, if you still want to maintain the focus on supporting women, is that you do one for men, no, or with men, that have supported women. Because that is something that often goes forgotten, that many men support women in their own growth or on their path of growth. And we don't...

women.

Yeah, so true.

Caroline & Phillippe (55:43.646)
acknowledge that support often enough. And that might be your second

Yeah.

That's a lovely way. Yeah. I wanted to do something also more on the story side. And so that's a night. That would be a very nice twist to it.

Caroline & Phillippe (55:59.896)
Because I think it's important that women acknowledge the support that we get from men, particularly when they were not necessarily forced to help us or when they didn't have to do anything, yet they still did. And I would not be in this position without all the men that were well-intentioned, that were supportive, that were encouraging. And I think in hindsight, I think there were even more men than women.

Yeah, still do. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (56:29.758)
adopting that role of pushing me into the wrong direction. You were definitely one of them. You look beyond the gender. You see the potential in the person, not in the gender. And I would never think about, need more men in my executive team or something like that. It just doesn't make sense. And quite naturally, I...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (56:58.494)
I often preferred working with women because they brought so much to the table. But it's also a question of understanding them, right? It's... well. You are... Yeah, but it's also rich.

Mmm.

We are complex. The beauty of complexity.

Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (57:26.858)
Once you start to understand just 10 % of it, then you already unlock a huge potential. I think also looking at women's health is something that is not enough weaved into a corporate culture. Like understanding women, how they behave, how they think, etc. has a lot of physiological reasons.

Mm-hmm.

Great.

Yep. They don't get it. Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (57:55.982)
And men just don't get it, right? Or they don't want to get it. No, they get away with pretending they don't understand. I think we're not smarter than that. What are you saying? I've worked with lot of doctors, male doctors. Well, yeah. But, you know, I have had situations when I had to whistle at

Yeah.

Hahaha!

I'm

Caroline & Phillippe (58:26.048)
a few men when I saw them misbehaving and saying, come on, imagine if this was your sister or your mom. Would you talk about her like this? In my case, was horrible.

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that still happens so much. I'm shocked. We were we took a young a young man. He's graduated from high school. He's going to college. And we took him to dinner on Friday night. And he was telling us a story that he went to a university and it was a type of fraternity setting. And I was shocked at what elder elderly men were saying to these young kids about

women, way that they were talking about women. And he was shocked. I thought, my gosh, you know, we hear so much that it's like, like we there's fatigue about this topic, but we have to keep going because these conversations and these comments are still happening. until, yeah, I don't know if it's ever going to, it will never stop, you know, we hope, but until it does, we have to, can't be fatigued by these conversations. have to keep.

Caroline & Phillippe (59:16.888)
Yes.

Caroline & Phillippe (59:32.578)
And I even think that times are so bad currently that we're going back to the old way of thinking and talking and this much behavior and it's it's that wrenching. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

It is gut wrenching. Yeah. One of the volunteer roles that I have is for the HBA and it's the healthcare business, it's the Healthcare Business Women's Association. And one of the areas that we're focusing on is women's health. Interesting that you raised that topic. And we've had to change the name from women's health to inclusive health.

Caroline & Phillippe (59:55.288)
for the HVA.

because so many organizations, because of what's happening in North America, or I shouldn't say North America in the US, that they're not allowed to have initiatives or be supportive of initiatives that are focused on when the word woman is described. And I just think this is ridiculous that I can't believe that we're having, it feels like we're going back 50 years on these kinds of topics, but we're having to adjust and still move forward with it and.

Yeah, and kind of bob and weave and still make sure that it happens and push it forward, but maybe in a different way for now.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:00:50.978)
Yeah, think overall, when we look at the whole human rights debate, even if we believe that we are going back, the declarations, Universal Declaration of Human Rights still exists. We have it. So all we have to do now is to continue advocating for it in one form or another. The point is that even if certain terms become prescriptive, if this is what they want, that doesn't make

Yeah. Yep, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:01:18.254)
principle go away or that will make the philosophy disappear. We still have it. We've advocated for it personally for 25 years. I won't stop now. I'm happy to adjust if this is what they wish. But nevertheless, at the same time, these principles are there and we will continue finding ways to uphold them, if possible. And the other thing is that we can transmit it to the next generation.

Right.

Yeah. Nope. Yeah.

Yep.

Yep, absolutely.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:01:47.372)
So maybe this is also coming back to your book or the role that you have is to not only inspire our generation but also the next generation to tell them, hang on here, please read this. It's like, wait, read this. You'd be a good boy.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, do this.

Yay. that's so great. And could talk. We've already we I could talk forever with the two of you. I hope someday that we can actually sit in a room together and and have a nice conversation and nice dinner and nice glass of wine or two. So hopefully we can do that. But there's I wanted to ask one thing, maybe to kind of round things off at the at the end of the hour here.

There's an exercise in the book and it's called the dream big exercise. And you're asked to kind of sketch out your ideal in the next 10 years with no limits. So it's not necessarily I want a job role or you what's your five year plan? But if you could share like what would your big dream look like in the next years?

Caroline & Phillippe (01:02:56.45)
So I have

wondering I want to reach retirement age as healthy as can be. That means mental health, that means physical health. That also means that I have another 15 years or so to get ready for that moment. So I don't necessarily want to... I'm ready for that moment already.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Ready? Me too!

Caroline & Phillippe (01:03:28.91)
So, just to seize all the opportunities we have until then and to make sure that as individuals we remain as mentally and physically healthy as possible and that we try to pursue at least that goal to look after our own health because once we are healthy we can then also look after other and make sure that people around us are also doing well.

you

Mm.

Mm-hmm. True.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:03:59.662)
That might not be a big dream. Another dream I have is I do see myself taking my motorbike and dropping a big bag at the rear and just hit the road and just go and disappear for a moment. I can see myself doing that. But other than that, I don't have big dreams. I also have never been particularly ambitious.

What?

Caroline & Phillippe (01:04:29.462)
Yes. And I think it's, that doesn't mean that I haven't seized opportunities.

Okay.

Exactly. You're very ambitious, but I think you do it in a way that doesn't feel like, those you're very ambitious, but maybe the way that you achieve and you go towards your your goals feels somehow softer than, but you definitely are ambitious.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:05:03.968)
If I may. I think that's one thing that I often see with working with women and with men is women, they don't talk about it, but they do. Yeah. And they go ahead and just do their stuff. And the same here is there. It's not far, far reaching visions and I want to change the world, but

Yes, you may.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:05:32.984)
There is one, we went to a birthday party about 10 years ago, something like that. And the host or the birthday child, she handed out a name tag to everyone. And hers was world savior. Okay. And if I remember, I was Mr. Everything. So, but she's the world savior. Okay.

Mr. Everything.

you

Caroline & Phillippe (01:06:01.622)
and she just dreams about being mentally and physically fit and driving away with her motorbike and her backpack. All right, good. Well, we want to bridge the gap perhaps with reality. I think in the meantime, so the idea is that you can do good on a daily basis irrespective of where you are.

I know.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. True.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:06:28.142)
And then depending on the functions that you have, you just do what you can within that function. And obviously being in the position in which I am, I have that responsibility to make sure that thanks to the function in which I am, I can actually provide some positive impact or influence, whether it's health policies or the whether it's training for healthcare workers or...

whether it's looking after the staff or making sure that immunization campaigns are being rolled out and set up in the way they improve public health for populations. These are all things that I can do because I'm in that function. But if I were in a different function, I would try to make sure that I apply those skillsets to a different environment. It's just making sure that we optimize the skills that we have to the context in which we are.

Mm-hmm.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:07:25.294)
whether it's family, whether it's friends, whether it's work, I think we just constantly adjust to those environments.

and be healthy mentally, physically, and to take some time for yourself.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:07:38.894)
I think that is the most important thing in that age group, because I'm 51 now. I think everybody tells me that from now, additional efforts need to be made. need to start lifting more weights, need to do more cardio, better nutrition, etc. I think it's a moment where if at that age we put in the effort,

We can increase a healthier life after that and I'm just aware of it. But maybe it's because it's the business. mean, I'm not in the luxury food industry enjoying nice breakfast, lunch and dinners.

I

So Philippe, what's your big dream?

Caroline & Phillippe (01:08:27.69)
So basically being mentally and physically fit and driving away is a strategy. It's not the purpose. It's what you do and how you do it in order to create the positive impact. Yes, I know. Yeah, so this is me correcting. And it's actually quite similar with me also. I love to do or to continue doing what I'm doing. And that is...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:08:56.974)
is taking people by the hand metaphorically and help them see their greatness and achieve their purpose also. Regardless of the environment, if it's in a luxury hotel, that's very nice, but if it's in a boardroom as well or if it's in a walk in the forest, it's something very nice as well. But the purpose is really to leave the positive impact because we're just two people.

Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:09:26.348)
Yeah, but we can have multiplying effect and look at the fear that she has in her work environment. mean, this is not only multiplying, it's exponential. Hang on, hang on, don't get that wrong. Because for example, when Philippe is, you were working once in a beautiful hotel in a mountainous area for a few years and you were looking after people that were leading

Absolutely.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:09:57.038)
Fortune 500 businesses, right? Yes. And you made sure that the moment they left that place, they were able to again give their fullest to whatever business that they were engaging in. You are actually contributing to their well-being so they can remember the ripple effect. I think we can do that in our different areas of work.

The ripple, the ripples, there they go. Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:10:24.43)
You're quite right, actually, but I would just nuance it. I'm developing people so that they can ensure that the guests or other people can fulfill their dreams. And one thing can be this Fortune 500 dude having the time of his life with his family, reconnecting with his family so that he can continue driving his Fortune 500 company afterwards,

and going on. So we often neglect the richness of our purpose and I think that is a dominant thing. Women often underestimate their purpose or what are No, no, we just don't phrase it that way.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we have to have the self advocacy chapter because we have to learn how to do it and to do it in a way that even feels comfortable for us because not everyone feels comfortable talking so openly about it. So how do you weave that into conversations that feels okay for you to do? And it can be done. You just have to learn how to do it. Yeah. Yep.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:11:14.808)
Yeah.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:11:28.248)
Yes. What's to be done? Maybe can teach us. Maybe, Sabine, we take a class. We do podcasts even on Sunday mornings.

Yeah? I don't think you need one for me. I think he's got one just fine.

So nice. Thank you both so much. I didn't know where this was going to go. Yeah, we had obviously, Caroline knows me to the variables. I'm also structured. I like to have a flow of things, but it was so nice just to see how this flow went and how the conversation went. So thank you so much. Thanks for also the feedback on the book. It makes my heart happy and it makes me.

I always get emotional about this because I had this idea and so many things that you said are like, that's what I wanted. I wanted reflection. I wanted people to open it. When you said, you can just open it up anywhere. That's what I wanted. So you've affirmed these ideas and this richness, what I wanted with the book.

That it was a guide, but it was also just something that you could sit and reflect and to think on because we do too little of that, I think. We often, again, are just going going. So this time for reflection is so valuable. And if you can do it with each other and you can do by yourself or call a friend or take the time to do it because that also adds to, I think, to the richness of just life and again, sharing those beautiful stories. Yeah. So thank you so much.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:13:02.882)
Thank you so much, Sabine.

Have a good rest of your Sunday, enjoy, and then we'll see each other soon. Thanks.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:13:08.13)
Thank you. You too. And we continue to do it.

Caroline & Phillippe (01:13:16.494)
Be well, thank you for having us.