When the Host Becomes the Guest: Sabine Hutchison on Reinvention, Writing, and Legacy

Hey, hey, hey, good morning, Laura.

Ooh.

What an interesting conversation we're about to have that I'm not leaving. I love to lead conversations and I'm not doing it today.

Yeah, yeah, I mean it is not every day you get to interview Sabine Hutchison on our own podcast series.

yeah, I was excited that you said yes to this because I thought it was interesting to talk about the book, but it felt really odd for me just to start talking about it. And I really respect you also with the way that you write and what you do in your thought process and that you're actually in the process of thinking about writing a book because you recently wrote something about that. And I thought, this would be really fun to have a conversation with you.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, likewise, I've been really excited and thinking about the questions, my goodness, I was like, what can I ask you? I had like a million ways this could go. So many, so many questions. Yeah, so thank, well, thank you. Thank you for giving me, for giving me the chance. I mean, we've worked together for eight years.

Mmm. Yeah.

Yeah, it's pleasure. I know, I know. Sometimes when you actually when you interview people to reflect about how long you know them. And it's sometimes such a surprise. my goodness, like we've interacted at different levels, sometimes more, sometimes less. And yeah. It's been quite a journey.

Different capacities, yeah. Yeah, it's gone quickly. It has, it has. And I feel like I have been really lucky to see, I mean, just a tiny fragment of your story over the years and what a story it has been from the lab to starting companies, entrepreneur, CEO, advocate, co-founder, from the US to Germany. I mean, what a ride, what a ride.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it's been a wild ride. It's so interesting because I was thinking about the questions because you did we talked a bit about what kind of questions and what you're interested in. So I had a chance to reflect on them and and I really and I have this thing about reinvention which I which I love. I think reinvention is so great and I started thinking about my career. I'm like, my god, I'm like the queen of reinvention.

Yeah.

you

and just yeah taking risks. That was a really interesting process for me to be on the other side and to think about myself.

Yeah, I can imagine. And I'm excited because I get to know another side of you today and it is, you know, the creator, the dreamer and the writer, now the writer, you know, the woman who has spent 18 months putting this book together, you know, going back through, I think you said decades of notebooks, is that right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

It is, it's so funny. started to, because when this was coming into play too, I looked through all of my, in my office I have lots of shelves here and I've got so many notebooks. It is insane. I love paper and I love notebooks and I love writing. So maybe that was like an early kind of, yeah, piece of that, that I would actually write a book.

Yeah.

but I had notes everywhere. And that was kind of the inspiration for when I started this is that we have, our lives are filled in thousands of notebooks. And how in the world do we kind of pull all that together? And we have different, if I think about when I was younger and ideas that I had and aspirations and dreams that I had, they're probably still in that notebook somewhere because as we evolve and grow.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

We shift, of course, but they're still kind of locked away in that notebook. And I was like, hmm, wouldn't it be great to have a place to actually for a younger woman starting her career to actually have a place to like jot those things down, and eventually when she's, I don't know, 50 or 60 to go back and look at those, or as she evolves her career to pull those goals and ideas out. Yeah. That's how it actually started.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

So that was the idea, because I'm going to get... Okay, Great, I didn't know that and that's on my list of questions to delve into that. I'm glad.

Yeah, we're already jumping all over the place, aren't we? We said we were going to just everybody knows we said no editing, no nothing. We'll just go.

Yeah. We'll just go see what happens. Yeah. Bear with us. What, I mean the last couple of weeks must have been quite surreal because you've probably received boxes of like the physical book. I've just received mine. I know. So the postman never rings the doorbell and my dog started barking. I was like no not on the day we're gonna record the podcast and then I opened the door and it was this. I was like...

Yeah, yeah, I knew, I know. Yeah. How good perfect timing today.

Perfect timing! But what has it been like to just have the physical book and to start sending the first wave of pre-orders out? I mean, has that been surreal? How are you? How does it feel?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. I feel it's so interesting. It's been a wave of emotions. Like tears well up sometimes too. And that is how, you know, often we hear that, you know, my gosh, don't cry. Don't show tears. Don't show emotion. Well, this has been a very emotional process for me. And sometimes when I talk about it, I do, I well up. So it may happen today. So I'm just going to let that flow too.

But it's been, you This has been such, As I was reflecting, getting ready for today. You know, I think that this was longer in the making, subconsciously, not necessarily in my conscious that, okay, I'm gonna go write a book. But as I started thinking back, I think it's like always been there, but it's just been like this seed and it's just started to come up. So the last few weeks have been wild. They've been a crazy ride because I am self-publishing, which,

Yeah.

I decided to do. It was interesting because you have one book, but there's the second one. This is the career, the journal or the workbook. And I originally, that's like the basis of everything for me. This workbook is how it all started because through doing trainings, I mean, you know, also at Seuss, we've done workshops and career development for women and the HBA that I've been involved with, I've done a lot of things in this space.

and I always use this before I even thought about the book I was like I talked about your career book so in these trainings in these sessions I was like ladies you need to have a career book it's so crucial because as we said before you've got lots of notebooks that you use for projects for you you organize a trip a holiday or you you have a plan for your house

But you should also have one for your career. And then that's the place. That's your special place where you put all of those things down. Where you think about, who do I want to meet? What events do I want to go to? You You also, we all hear podcasts, so we hear things. We have these, like these one liners, we're like, I need to use that in a talk I'm going to give or something like that. And I was like, you need a place to put all that. Because if you don't, your pile's going to get bigger.

Yeah.

and All those beautiful ideas are going to be packed away and you're going to forget them because it's human nature to forget them.

Yeah, yeah, and that's, that's Interesting. I've never really thought about that because I like you love notebooks. I have hundreds of them. They drive my husband crazy. They're everywhere in this house in no particular. Yeah, I have them everywhere and they are in no particular order. Like I will just open a random page and write. So, you know, God forbid I ever do write a book because I would be it would probably take me years to try and piece together the threads. But I have notebooks on everything.

Mm. That's right, you mentioned that once. You have them like all over.

You

you know, You know, holidays to projects that I'm working on, you know, work, but not about my own personal, yeah, career aspirate. Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, really interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yourself. Yeah, yeah. That's been this piece that's been with me for a long time. And so when I had the idea, I approached some publishers and they said, we like the idea of the book and the content. So I've had a bit of an outline for the chapters, but we're not interested in the workbook. I was like, huh.

hmm.

I was like, well then that's not interesting for me because for me the core is this workbook. Yeah. So that's why I decided to self publish and because I wanted to talk about this openly, I didn't want to be restricted with who I share information with. And so that led me on this journey that I'm on now, which is a wild one.

Yeah. Is the workbook. Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. How do you navigate the vulnerability of putting such a personal project out there? Has that in itself taught you anything new about yourself?

Yeah, definitely. It has. It's scary because it well, it's scary. This idea is like, OK, when I remember like just I mean, it's been like weeks literally now, like sending the first versions out and thinking, oh, shit, I'm going to get.

Yeah. Yes.

I'm gonna get feedback now. We all love great feedback, you know the The other kind actually somebody in the book one of the ladies that I interviewed talks about feedback and also talks about challenging and critical feedback that it's a gift. So I reflected on what she said I was like, okay And her name is also Sabine Wiedemann mon she said okay, do you have everything is a gift that you get back? So whether they're

Yeah.

it's positive or it can be negative or suggestions. You just have to see it as a gift. So that's the mindset that I'm trying to keep, which is not always easy, but I'm trying to keep that mindset when I start to get feedback because they're going to be there. And there's going to be aspects that people go, I really love that. You know, that doesn't resonate with me so much. So just trying to be open to that.

Yeah, no, I can imagine.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. What a great mindset. A gift. Yeah. Feedback is a gift. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, yeah, it is that was one of the, that was, and again, this whole process of interviewing. I interviewed like 36 women for the book. Yeah. It was so many. So that also took quite a bit of time to do that and finding slots and weekends and evenings and, you know, trying to find time to interview all of these ladies. And those pieces of them and pieces of their story have definitely stayed with me. So.

Really? I had no idea it was so many. Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I think I read recently you'd posted something on LinkedIn about the greatest gift for you in this entire process was being entrusted with those stories that had been shared with you and the reinventions and the triumphs and the pivots and yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Wow, huge.

Yeah, and the pains and the health issues and the struggles that people went through. women opened themselves up and to me and now to everyone else, which is huge. I felt a very, burden is the wrong word, but I felt very responsible for those stories and...

Yeah.

Yeah,

because obviously I spoke to them for a longer period of time. And so trying to condense that into and to make that into something that they, that resonates with them and that they feel comfortable sharing also with, yeah, the world now because this book can be purchased by anyone and read. And that meant a lot to me because some of the women I knew and I've known for years, some of them were acquaintances that I met along the way. And some of them I didn't know at all.

Yeah.

I was at a couple of conferences and I heard some ladies speak and I made a beeline for them at the end. was like, I need to interview you. Here's what I'm doing. And Laura, they all said yes. mean, women that didn't know me, they said yes because they felt that the chapters, the content, they were like, this needs to be shared and I'm proud to be a part of that. So even the ladies that didn't know me said yes.

I need to interview you. Yeah.

Yeah.

And they were like, yes to the dress. They said yes to the book.

Wow, that's amazing. I wondered what was happening. Well, I know you've said that perhaps this was always a burning idea in the background that one day a book would come to fruition. But what was happening in your life or perhaps the lives of the women around you that made you feel like, now is the moment to bring this all together. Was there a specific

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

thing or was it just many many things? Yeah.

Yeah, I think it was a lot of things. There wasn't like, I remember the first time I said it out loud, that was interesting. So I'd been thinking about it and I was like, okay, okay. And I love that one of the things also that I talk about in this book is having an accountability partner. So somebody that you trust that you can work with. And I was like, okay, big breath. And I remember the first time I said out loud, I'm going to write a book.

who we are. Yeah.

And I thought, okay, now there's no turning back. If I say it out loud, I have to do it. And that was for me pushing me to the next level to say I need to start talking about that I want to write a book. And that pushed me to actually start to take all of the ideas and the notebooks and the learnings and to start converting that into something. that I felt.

What I wanted is that there are so many, are great career books out there. There are great things. And I wanted to take, I don't know, just a bit of a different perspective. And I think even, like, if you look at some of the titles, I don't know if you looked at that yet, but if you look at some of the titles, maybe I'll just read a couple of them, because I wanted it to be a bit different. you know, the story. The book kind of builds too, because it starts with self-assessment, because I feel if you don't have, if you don't have,

Yeah, please.

clarity about who you are and what you want. It's difficult to take steps to really grow and develop your career. So it starts with that. And the first chapter is actually mirror to the future, self-assessment, goal setting for career success. So it's all about like holding up that mirror and looking at yourself and reflecting about what you want. And this personal brand, we work with Gina and she loves personal brand.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

And I also wanted this idea of personal brand to feel authentic to you because not everyone is into making their their self be a brand or to go out into the world and it's called authentic by design because it needs to fit to who you are. So to to to find things that fit to you and then another chapter is also like your Power Squad Unlocking Lasting Impact through mentorship sponsorship and coaching. So it's

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanted just to take a different spin and to maybe think of it differently than maybe some that's in some other books.

Yeah, yeah, I see that. And I think, think again, perhaps it was on LinkedIn when you'd posted when you were in the process of writing the book that this is not a career guide. It's absolutely not. It's way more than that. It's a home. It's a home for ambition and reinvention. And I really, really loved that. I think for a lot of women, I guess maybe the starting point is you feel this

Thank

Yeah. Yep.

nudge or this something is burning you don't know what it is there's a pull where do you yeah where do you start it's it's the re is it that you need to take a step back and you know we evolve we we change constantly and sometimes we don't realize and the old beliefs the old values they don't fit us anymore is that part of as you mentioned you know holding the mirror up?

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yep.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think totally and being like authentic to yourself. Yeah, I think Laura, you're a good example of that and what you do and the work that you do because you have made a very clear decision about what you love, the way you love marketing. Because I listened to the podcast that you were on about branded, Branded AF with Gina and Natalie. And you spoke about the use of AI and what you believe in that and how, you know,

Is that? Yeah. Yeah.

with Gina and Natalie.

that I was really impressed with that because you stay very true to yourself. So that's part of it is like looking and saying, and saying that out loud, this is how I'm going to be AI's out there. This is how I will potentially use it, how I won't use it and being true to that. And you know, those two ladies are powerhouses with, with their beliefs, which is also great, but you don't sway to what, know, you're open and you listen and you can have a great conversation, but you also stay,

Yeah.

Yes, they are. Yeah.

stay true to that. So you're holding your mirror up on how you utilize that. But it's, actually taking some time and thinking about it like that. And, I think that that's what I try to do is to put questions like the workbook is really asks specific questions and guides you through to try to, can I look at that mirror and get a little bit deeper? So it's that first step, I think with with anything and making change, it's like just saying, all right, I'm going to start here.

get deeper. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to say out loud, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to, yeah, or whatever it is.

Yeah. I wondered if I could ask you a bit about your creative process because I'm fascinated by people's, yeah, how they bring all of this together. And was there anything that surprised you about how the book came together or surprised yourself about yourself as a writer that you didn't know about yourself before? Is there anything you discovered through this whole process?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting because I've never really considered myself a writer. I'm a chemist. I studied chemistry. No, you know, The kind of writing that we did was not necessarily creative. It was very fact-based and data. And I love exploring. I'm curious. I think that that's part of the science piece that comes out. I'm a very, I feel that I'm a very curious person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My dad always encouraged us to, you know, look how do things work and to uncover things. And a couple of years ago, I decided I wanted to do a TED talk. I was like, whoa, okay, that's a first step. So you have to write, but you also have to speak. So it's combining two areas that I didn't necessarily feel comfortable with. I was like, all right, well, that's a starting point. And it was total intuition. I read about it.

I talked to Emma Wainer who was running the course. was like, okay, I just need to do this. And that's how I just felt it. And I went with it. I didn't reflect actually a lot at all was like, okay, this is perfect. Let's just do this. And that process was so interesting about how she taught us a lot about how to put ideas. So you start with, you know, for also a Ted talk, pooh, you know, how many ideas can fill a room? That's what you can start with, but how do you start filtering that down

Yeah.

and creating a structure, getting that kind core idea and then building from that and that brainstorming process. So that was a bit of a start for me, is how to do that. So that helped with my creative process. So I used a lot of mind mapping and I had notebooks and I drew a lot. And I got colored pens and pencils and used a notebook to actually draw things out more

Yeah.

Canyon. Yeah.

than just like writing words down. So I kind of just got wild with that.

And your pen on paper, are you doing this also digitally or just both? Yeah.

Both. It was both. First it was a combination of both. And then I started typing, but I always wrote. There was always a bit of a combination with that. So I always spent a lot of time writing. And I would do, because I do have notebooks, too. I little ones. I always have a little one that I carry with me everywhere. Like this is my notebook. So if I go on a trip or I go anywhere, this goes in my purse.

Yeah.

So at least try to keep one. I'm not like, you know, 50 around the house. I'm trying to keep one. That's my little one. And then I have a bigger one where I would hear something. I was like, ooh, that's a really cool idea. And that kind of fits with my thought process. And I would write things down. And then I would take that one piece and start asking myself questions. Okay, what does this mean? How could this be? And then I would start writing. I did use Chat GPT for brainstorming sometimes because I didn't have anyone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

to kind of go back and forth. And so was like, I'm thinking about this idea. and so I would use it as a brainstorming tool, which was actually pretty handy. Like no big structure. Yeah, it's a really great use of AI. And it's interesting because we're also helping some people looking for jobs right now. And I was like, have AI interview you. Put the job description in

Yeah, I think that's great, great use of AI right now. Right? Yeah.

Yes!

and have it come up with questions and interview you. So that's also a way that you can, you don't necessarily get your answers, but you can kind of have this back and forth, which was very helpful for me. Yeah, I am a collaborative type of person sometimes I would call someone, I was like, what do you think about this idea? Have you struggled with this? And then go from there and then just start expanding. And it was, my God, it was.

is. Yeah.

I would write then all kinds of stuff and then just narrow it down to a chapter. So I learned, yeah, I just learned a lot about, I think, becoming more concise as well and just trusting myself too with what, yeah, with what I was saying and that it was relevant. And then I used the stories. So when I actually, when I first started, I did a chapter title and I did three sentences. This is what I want the chapter to be about.

And that's what I use to send to the ladies and say, this is the concept of the book. And that's actually all I had at that point. And what do you connect with?

Okay, so they were able to pick a theme or a question. Okay. Yeah

Something that resonated. Yeah. And So then I would interview them and then that would help expand the book because via that dialogue, more ideas would come.

I was going to say, did some of the interviews, did they change the trajectory of the chapter or the book? Because of course, yeah, you would have been learning so many new things from these women along the way that yeah.

Yeah, sometimes yes. absolutely.

Yeah, this was really an evolution. So I would come up with some ideas, then I would interview, I'd be like, oh no, that's gonna go, this needs to go in instead. So there was a lot of that. A lot of conversations really helped mold the chapters, really helped put them together, those conversations. You have, oh, I have to go in. This is so relevant. Or one chapter got way too massive. It was about resilience and failure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was trying to pull failure and resilience together and I did work with a copy editor and she was like, these are two very specific pieces and you've got enough here to pull out another chapter. And we actually even created another chapter sometimes because I was trying to get too much into one. Yeah. Yeah.

Too many, too much ideas. Yeah, How do you boil it all down? All the amazing content that these ladies must have been pulling together for you.

Yeah, That I have to say, I did use AI as well. That was really helpful. And Gina helped me do a prompt on how to consolidate the transcript. So it helped me, I would add what was key for me. This is what I wanted the theme of the story to be. So for me, it was clear during the conversation what I wanted. But AI helped pull that together.

So it helps structure it and then I rewrote it from that structure because Laura, would have taken, it would have taken 10 years to consolidate all of that and go through all of that text. my gosh. So that was a really nice tool to use.

From the structure I see.

I can imagine. Do you know what? I think it's really quite refreshing to hear you be so transparent and open about your use of AI. Because at the moment for writers, it's a touchy subject and there's a lot of people that don't want to admit that they use it and there's lots of who are anti-AI, let's say, in the creative space. But these are the types of things that AI can...

Okay.

Yeah.

do for us as creatives and writers so well. And I don't think we need to hide the fact that we use it and that we do it. It's about using AI with purpose, isn't it? And responsibly, yeah. No.

They're super. Yeah.

No.

Responsibly. For me, yes. I didn't write this book, but it supported me in areas that would have taken me much longer. But it was always my vision. And also with helping with the transcripts, I knew what I wanted from that story. It just helped me consolidate it. And then I took that and then brought myself and the women into it. So that was the key piece.

Yeah. Wow.

And sometimes it would come back and be like, ugh, no, this is completely not right. So I really knew what I wanted from those stories. That was key.

Yeah, Yeah, well that's yeah, I mean AI couldn't do this book on its own that that just goes to show, you know, this is it's a companion, it's a tool that we can use to help us in in this creative process. But yeah, you still need to be there. Yeah.

Mm-mm.

Right. Yeah. And you do still need to be there. And for me, this is about, I think it's important to share how we grow and how I write a book because maybe somebody else has great ideas out there. And I don't think you have to be shy or like you said, be embarrassed about using AI. think it's about using it responsibly and to be a support in the process, not to do it.

Find your way that works for you.

Yeah, Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I wanted to ask you a little bit about success, which is a big theme in the book. And I wondered, have perhaps not with the women that you interviewed, because this is so recent, but have there been any moments in your professional career or your journey to date that some perhaps...

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

some of the women that you've worked with that have maybe profoundly impacted your own perspective of success.

Hmm

Yeah, That's a really interesting and there are a lot of stories actually about that and about what is success. And I think that for me is also, I hope that that seen as a red thread throughout the book is that this success is for you. And I even actually that's fun. Okay, this is definitely not planned, this is, so maybe I'll read this. Where are we going? So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where are we headed?

At the first part of the book, this is who it's for. So it's for the dreamers who see possibilities where others see limits, the change makers rewriting the rules, those who dare to leap, and for those still unsure. May this book remind you that every step is yours to take in your time and in your way. That's the theme. That's what success looks like. It's for you. It's not for someone else to define what success looks like. It's about what does it mean for you?

Yeah.

No.

But take the time to define it. So yeah, so that's what success means for me that we each have our own definition and that evolves too. So my idea of success when I was 21 is different than now. And that's a good thing, but take that and then decide what it is for you, but don't let yourself and that's really what I want is that.

Yeah.

You know, when I thought about the book too, I wanted it to be a place for everyone. I wanted it to be potentially for someone who starts, somebody who's mid part it, and even some senior people, because I believe that there are aspects that they can utilize and some stories that they can hear and that maybe trigger ideas or concepts again. But it's about, yeah, what do you want? You know, What is right for you? You don't have to be a CEO. You don't have to be a Team Lead. don't need whatever you want to be.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Being true to yourself, I guess, and letting go of maybe some of the societal expectations as women that we have that, you know, this is success for a woman, you know, letting some of those moments go.

But be that well, do that well. That's what it's about.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We have to be on a board. We have to be a CEO. We have to be, you know, all these that this is the idea of success for some women it is, but for others it's not. you sh and I just am such a, yeah, such a believer that we don't have to be on a board to be successful.

Yeah.

Yeah absolutely yeah success comes in many shapes and forms doesn't it yeah so is yeah it's deeply personal and yeah is there a moment sorry Sabine I interrupted you

Mmm, yep.

Yeah, so personal. and I was, yeah, I know it's good just thinking too. it's about another thing, which I thought was really interesting is that some, one of the ladies that I interviewed, Caroline Spintzyk, we talked about passion and she said, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm a failure because all I hear about is that you have to have a passion, passion this passion that, and if you don't have it, well, forget about it. Cause you're not going to be the big why and the big passion.

And she said, I've got tons of them. I've got tons of passions. So why can't we have a lot of them? Why do we have to have this big aha passion and this aha big why? This one thing. And I thought that was really interesting too. That's another thing that took us like we can have lots of them. I have them. I have this. I love clinical research. That's what I do in my work. I love talking to people. love develop.

this big one path this bit yeah yeah

Yeah. Yeah.

have so many different things that I'm interested in. So it's, that was a nice way to think about that.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that really resonates with me because I felt that the last couple of years, this pressure to figure it out or to have it, to have this one goal and achieve it. And I have many ideas and many interests and sometimes I can feel like I'm getting left behind or I'm not on the right path. But and my husband recently has achieved his lifelong dream.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's made me really question myself. You know, he's gone off and he's done this training and he's worked incredibly hard and it's done. He's out there living this one goal that he has had since he was like a young kid. And it has really shook me and I'm happy for him and I am over the moon, but at the same time I'm like, I haven't done it. I haven't figured it out yet.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

I haven't achieved and I've been questioning and going back and thinking have I missed it? But then I'm slowly coming around to this idea that I'm not just a one goal person or a one passion person. You know, there's many paths I can walk and will walk and the world needs both of those kinds of people, right? Yeah.

I don't know.

No.

Yeah.

Absolutely, yeah. And what a great, like, place to be to go, yeah, I've got lots. And I'm gonna, maybe you're gonna, I'm gonna write the book. I'm gonna do more interviews for podcasts. Laura, you're great at this. I'm gonna do this. And that's such a fantastic thing. You don't have to have the one. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think it's great that I'm so happy to hear more conversations around this because I think as women we're sold some hard, well they're kind of lies, they're not truths, know, that things have to be a certain way and you know, this is the path, the only path and this is, you know, success. So it's good to hear different versions of that and different, absolutely. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, there are lots of versions of it. And it's also interesting too. I don't know about you, but I always had this idea. If I take this one course, if I listen to this one podcast, if I read this one book, it's going to be like, I'm going to, they're fairy godmother and she's going to, you know, tap me on the shoulder with the magic wand and I'm going to be enlightened and I'm going to have all the answers. I don't know why I thought that. I always had, I was like, oh, it felt like I was always searching,

Yeah.

for that thing to read, to do, a course to take, and that was gonna do it. But that's exactly, it's all of those together. there's no, or maybe some people have these big aha moments, but normally, it all just kind of builds, and then you're like, okay, wow, this is where I'm supposed to be, and this is the path that I'm supposed to be on. But I think it's so important to take the time to reflect,

Yeah.

Yeah.

continue to grow and educate yourself. So it's all of those pieces and it's not just this magic wand moment for most of us.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It makes me think about your process of going back through those decades of notebooks. That must have been quite a cathartic process in a way of like revisiting ideas or experiences that you had maybe 10 years ago, 20 years ago, like with a new set with a new set of eyes, essentially with, you know, all this experience in your back pocket now, it must have been yes, slightly therapeutic along the way to like

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, It was a little bit. would look, I literally would look at things like, my gosh. And actually my note taking and ideas that I had, but a lot of the things I would, I remember once in one of the notebooks, I found like this list of, was at a training program for a company that I was working at. And I had a list of people that I was challenging myself to like meet at the company. And there was a CEO and some senior leaders to kind of get my

to get myself out there. And when I looked at the list, I was like, actually ended up doing that. But I didn't necessarily register that that was a goal that I had that I did. And that's why, again, I think it's so important to kind of have this in one spot, because you forget about these achievements that you make. And it's nice to go back and to look at those. And some things that didn't work. I mean, there were some things that, you know, that weren't there.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

But I thought that that was a really interesting process to see, okay, wow, I actually did that, but it would have been nice had I had a more concise place where all of those ideas and goals were. yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, all those. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess when it just happens in the flow of life, you probably don't even acknowledge it at the time as a win or Yeah, but of course, it might seem small. But that's a big thing to put yourself out there and go and, you know, meet those big names and CEOs of companies that you aspire to be one day like at the time it's Yeah, you probably don't even register it to you. It's only with life and experience that you can look back and be like

as a win, yeah.

Yeah.

Now.

yeah, I did that. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. Exactly. When we do forget, you know, I forget what I did last week, let alone what I did years ago and what I, you know, what my goals were years ago. So yeah, absolutely. That's why I think documentation is key. And what I think is also really interesting about this is that stories are so important in how we communicate with people.

Well done, you did that! Yeah, good job!

Yeah, me too. Tell me about it.

Yeah.

And if we have kind of this bullet list or this documentation of situations that we've experienced, people that we've met, if we have those available, we can incorporate those into stories and they can actually potentially help teach or be putting a speech together or if you're giving an example to an employee or to a colleague.

Yeah.

If you have those available, it's so much easier to weave those into conversations. And I'm such, such an advocate. I tell people this all the time, write these things down, write these situations down because you're going to forget them. And what seems minuscule that is it not that maybe feels not relevant could be really relevant in the future. So that's why I think this whole storytelling piece is so important. But if we don't kind of document those

Yep.

bullets or these ideas, you won't ever be able to weave them into stories.

Yeah, yeah, and bring that authenticity and that lived experience through. Yeah,

Yeah, exactly. Because people love talking about things like that. I mean, most people really love hearing about stories. Susan Brakmann and I are running a mentoring program right now for the HBA. And that's what the last session that we had, they just wanted to ask some questions about examples of when we had specific situations. And it's because I have a tendency to do this. I write these things down,

Really?

Yeah.

and they're aware to me because I look through them sometimes too. So they're very, they're present for me. I was able to pull out examples that somebody had asked because it was, yeah, it was there. I just maybe looked at it a week ago, so I knew about them. Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, a great, yeah, great opportunity to, yeah, to bring your truth and your lived experience forward as well, isn't it? Yeah. And I suppose that helps you, you know, keep to your values and your, you know, what's important to you along the way as well, isn't it? When you know your story, when you've got it in your back pocket to align to different things. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm, exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, how are we doing for time?

Tip of the day. think we've got to, yeah, we're at 40 minutes. It depends on, could talk, I can gap for you for hours, but we can, it depends on how long everyone else wants to listen to this conversation.

Yeah. We can maybe just have a quick pause and maybe quick check. We can edit this little snippet out, but just make sure. Have I asked you everything that you have really wanted to talk about? Is there anything that I've really missed that you would like, you you really want to make sure we include?

Now, I think this is actually, it flowed really nicely. Talked about the creative process. We talked about the women, the stories. No, I think we've hit most of it, don't you think?

Yeah, I think it's been a nice conversation. Just want to make sure you feel, I'm just going to quickly flip through my notes to make sure, if there's anything. Yeah, so we've done the women, done the creative process. Yeah, so we've talked about who the book is for, the people that might have that nudge and not know where to go. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, how can we wrap this up? How can we close this one down?

Hmm.

Let's sync.

we could talk about.

if there is somebody that's really feeling this nudge right now. no, we've kind of done that, haven't we? Because we've talked about holding the mirror up and looking at your... Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. we could maybe to tie it up. You could ask me about the last chapter. It's called it's called legacy building. Shaping the future for the next generation of women leaders.

Okay, let me open the book. Let's have a little look. Oh, is this the tapestry of impact?

Yeah, yeah, those are all of the ladies that I interviewed and a little nugget about them.

Okay, I'll ask you to...

So because legacy, so yeah, you can just ask me, maybe because my idea of what like legacy is, we often think about legacy like when we're like ancient. Or, know, we think about, you know, this idea of legacy, but I'm such a believer that we're building it now. yeah. And then that ties it up and yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. that's nice. Yeah. Okay. Let me ask you about that. Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll do a little pause and we can edit it nicely.

All right. Yeah.

Well, I wanted to ask you maybe as an ending question for this podcast today, Sabine, I've got the book. I wanted to ask you about the last chapter, legacy building, shaping the future for the next generation of women leaders. Can you tell us a little bit about this final chapter in the book?

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Actually, When you said that, I got a little lump in my throat because legacy is this idea of legacy. I really wanted to tie this in because we often think about what legacies do people leave and we often associate legacies like with Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu and know, Marie Curie, they're legacies that are very apparent to us.

Yeah.

And I wanted to bring legacy home to people. I wanted women to think about themselves and that they're leaving a legacy. They have, we all have one. And the book is about your path to your legacy and that you really think about what you do, that you think about your values, that you think about how you engage with people, that you think about sharing your stories, because if you don't, those are all steps,

Yeah.

as you're building your legacy. We're building our, we are building our legacy every day, every conversation that we have, everything that we do, every person that we touch, that we uplift, that's building a legacy. And I wanted that to be so apparent for people because I think that we don't necessarily think about legacy like that.

We go.

Yeah, that's kind of blown my mind a little bit. I have never thought about it like that and that is really powerful. Yeah, really powerful. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was important because we're all are leaving it. This is part of mine. The people that I talk to that call me and say, need help. Will you look at my CV? You know, something totally kind of random. That's my legacy is taking the time to talk to those people and to potentially have an impact on them.

Yeah.

Just everything that we do being kind to someone is part of your legacy, being present, you know, these are all things that seems so simple, but it's really part of your legacy and it's about what people think about, about you. And I just wanted to make that real and feel real for people and that it doesn't feel far away. You know, when we're 95 and we think about our eulogy, it's interesting. think I was talking to someone, they were like thinking about their legacy equal eulogy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like we don't want to think about it like that. We want to think about it now. And what I did in the book as well, all of the women that I interviewed, I wrote, there's a final section. So instead of just saying thank you to the ladies, I did this Tapestry of Legacy. So I have each woman and write a bit, a short little bit of information about her,

and what I feel her legacy is. And so that was kind of my gift to them that they also think about themselves like that.

Yeah.

What was that like showing the women that contributed? Did you show them before the booklet was published? I'm assuming you did. What were their... Yeah. Yeah, of course. What were some of the reactions? that must be, you I'm imagining, you know, somebody doing that for me or you, you know, can imagine you giving me one. You know, what were some of the reactions that you got from some of the women that feature in that?

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I had to get consent forms. There's a legal aspect of all of this emotional beautiful. I had to get a consent form signed.

That makes me cry. It was beautiful. It was really beautiful because some people, some women said, how you captured me. You get my story and I'm so happy to be sharing this. So that was a very emotional part.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's one of your special talents. So as well Sabine, you see people, don't you? I think that's, yeah, you always do that to me. You see me in a way that I never see myself or never dare to see myself, yeah, you bring that out. So I can imagine there was some teary eyes reading those. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, there were definitely some teary eyes. The one, I interviewed actually, So a piece of legacy for my family is I interviewed my sisters and my mom. So that for me, here I go again, is something incredibly special to have them there.

wow.

you

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's been a thank you so, so much for... Yeah!

Wipe away the tears. didn't, I said I wasn't sure if I was going to do this, but I was like, all right, well, let's keep it real. And I'll just show that part of me as well.

Yeah. What, just what an achievement. What, yeah. Yeah, I have so much to say, just a huge congratulations and I can only imagine, you know, what a process this has been and all the emotions that you felt along the way and just, yeah, a massive congrats because it's, it is a legacy. It is, it's part of your legacy. It's, wow, it's amazing. And I can only encourage you all to go and get your, whee!

then.

Yeah, yay!

Go and get it, go and order it. And where can people find this, Sabine? Yeah.

Oh yeah, on my website, sabinehutchison.com, there's a shop and there are all kinds of options if you'd like to just to get, so there's just the Beyond the Ladder and then the workbook. And I think maybe I've just, the workbook actually does, you can see lots of space for writing. So it really is a place for you to spend some time, either with a glass of wine or a cup of coffee, which I love, to take time and reflect on yourself and take that time for yourself. It's really important.

Yeah.

Yeah, Fantastic. Thank you so much for letting me take over your podcast series today. It's been great fun. Yeah, no worries anytime. No, thank you, Sabine. Bye.

Yeah, it was so fun, Laura. Thank you so much for doing this. And really enjoyed the conversation.

Take care. Bye.