When Men Read a Leadership Book for Women

it out. If there's anything that you want to change in your response, just say, I'd like to adjust it and then we can edit that later. So if you want to go in a different direction, just pause for a second, but pause for enough to have space to cut and then we can fix anything.

Okay.

All right. Okay.

Thank you.

Well, hello, gentlemen. It is so wonderful to have all of you. It's like I see all of your faces usually on individual calls and just love the conversations that we had. And I was so happy when you agreed to do this podcast with me. You are you are gentlemen that I've had contact with a lot in the past. And and I know you're open and I know you're going to be very honest. So that's what I'm going to really love about this conversation. So

Thank

You have taken the step. You've read a book that I've written. So thank you very much for even taking the time and looking actually to books. So it's a lot of information. You probably got it and thought, Whoa, wait a minute. I was expecting one book, but no, it was two. And and I'm really curious to hear your insights. But I'd like for each of you, if you could give a brief introduction about yourself and tell us who you are and where you are. And maybe we'll do that alphabetically. So, Ben, that starts with you.

So we can complete the task and you can have that book that by the way, it's a great book. Actually, we've done a of on this. I forgot about the book. think I did a couple seconds on the book. And I'm really curious to see what it is. I had a great time. I'm excited about it. I hope you are where you are. And we can do that on the...

Yeah, hey Sabin, really good to see you and everyone else. A real pleasure to be with you all today. So I'm Ben, Ben Osborne. I've been with Pfizer over 25 years now. My current role is I'm the president of the International Commercial Office. Simply put, that means I lead our marketing organization across all of the countries outside of the US, across our end-to-end portfolio.

Great, thanks Ben. And you're in the UK. So, in the UK, yeah. So good to see you. And 25 years, that's impressive. know, yeah. And then next is C. So Cyrus, we're gonna head over to you.

Thank

I'd basically be a caddy, yes.

Thank you.

you. you

Thanks. Thanks Sabin. Hi all. I'm Cyrus Park. I'm American. Actually, I work, live and work in the Netherlands. I spent the last 15 plus years primarily in the CRO, clinical CRO industry. Started as a project manager, worked through different roles and now executive director, business development at CRO.

I'm in a transition, so not going to lie, the last CRO post I was at was IQvia and looking forward to starting new again in December.

We'll definitely post that when the episode is live, Cyrus, so it won't be a secret where you are. you can't say it. Okay. Well, Congratulations on that. And Damiano, nice to have you.

Okay. I'm moving to Parik's cell.

Thanks for watching.

Thanks.

Hi everyone and thanks much for having me. Very, very curious about the discussion. Thanks for the invitation. Looking forward to the different chats. So, Damiano, living in Switzerland, currently leading value access and external affairs at Merck at local level. for Switzerland, an epidemiologist by training, spent some year in research.

working for the government and now in the private industry.

Thanks, Damiano and Patrick. Over to you.

Hey everyone, I'm Patrick. I have been working in healthcare for more than 20 years. I'm German American. I'm based in Austria. Damiano and I were neighbors kind of country-wise, I guess. And I've been a consultant in the pharmaceutical and medical industry for the last more than five years now. And yeah, very excited to be speaking with this group about a couple of very interesting topics.

Yeah.

Thanks for having us, Sabina.

Yeah, great. No, thank you. All right. Well, jump straight in. So I have mentioned before that actually when I it was interesting when I wrote the book, I talked about Beyond the Ladder a lot, but there was a book and a workbook. So I'm curious, what were your first impressions when you got the package? What did it spark? What were your initial thoughts? Damiano?

So actually I was very interested by the premise to have a dedicated book and including a workbook dedicated for women. I think this offers a different approach also to leadership and challenging also traditional notions.

you

Okay, thanks. And Patrick, how about you?

My first, we said earlier, we're going to be very frank in this discussion, right? I thought, it comes with the workbook. I actually have to do some work here as well. And then I want to be honest, it actually turned out to be my favorite part of the book and the workbook combination, because it really forced you to think about what you just read and try to apply it to yourself and the people that you know. And I actually really did enjoy that. And I came out of this experience reading the book that I thought,

Please do.

You

More books should have this workbook with them, because otherwise you read, you put it down, and you're done. This was much more interactive, and I thought it was just brilliant, and I actually really loved it.

Yeah.

Okay, great. that's interesting. Yeah, the first, hmm, I have to work. love that. Or you don't have to, but it suggests which. Yeah. And then how about you?

You know me, right? You saw this coming.

well, first of all, I was super, super pleased to receive it because I remember you saying a few years back that you wanted to work to do this. So first of all, I was super happy for you to be that you'd actually taken the time to do it because writing a book like that is not straightforward. It requires a huge commitment. So yeah, for me, there was actually a reminder that if you really want to do something, you really believe in it, then go all in. And it was very, very clear from not just

the book, but how you presented it, how it all came together that you'd really, really thought deeply about this. I mean, think as others have said, I thought the practical nature of it, the workbook was very different, it was very different to almost every book on the leadership that sat behind me here, is almost, you read it you have to take it away and plan that for yourself. Actually, the piece that's really stuck with me, and they sit on my desk, is the work cards.

and the coaching cards. So I've got a number of these that I pulled out. five that really, really resonated with me. They're five that are a good reminder for me personally. And then I've regularly used some of the other cards with colleagues, my team and others that I mentor as well. So yeah, but again, very practical tips.

they're not, nice, yeah.

Nice.

nice.

Yeah, thanks. I love that. I have them on my desk too and I use them. And sometimes I start the day, I think about what am going to do today and pull one. And I haven't even talked about those that much. So maybe I'll do a little blurb at the end about the cards. And Cyrus, what about you? Thanks, Ben.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

same. I echo everyone else's thoughts. My initial thought was, you wow, thank you Sabine, thanks for sending me your book. you know, nice colors, nice graphics, look and feel, everything, you know, great content, subject matter, all was really interesting. I wanted to dive right in and then I saw, hey, you know, the workbook. Like everyone else has iterated, you know, it's

I think the real book is the workbook. And the career guided, the smaller book is sort of the instruction manual of how to use it properly in a way, you know? And what I felt as I got more familiar with the books was the thought that lingered in my mind was I wish I had something like this earlier in my career, just to kind of

give structure and guidance to think about things in a certain way. And I think the workbook and the accompanying book does that very well.

Nice, okay, well thanks. That's really interesting to hear the different perspectives. And I'm gonna jump straight in. One of the first chapters is about values. And I think I know most of you very well. So I know that that's also, that that's something that's very important to you. But we talk about values as compasses and not kind of these slogans that you see on the wall and you read them, but they don't really mean anything.

And I'm going to jump through here. One of the first past words is, I'm not down. I am looking very well. I know that I'm also, but that's that's very likely, that's something that I've counting.

So if you just think about yourself, we tend to step away from the book, what value most resonates for you and how do you integrate that also into your work every day? Or do you, or does it come in and out? I'm just curious how values kind of is a thread. And whoever wants to jump in, I'm happy to.

Yeah, maybe I have to jump in. I think values, you can't be in and out on values. I think it has to be a constant and a daily consistent in how you show up, how you think, how you behave. The reason I say that is if you don't provide that consistency for colleagues, I don't think there's trust that's ultimately built because colleagues then see you for one thing and then not.

No.

Mm.

you know, not the same thing later on in time. So I think it's that consistency day in, day out that really, really matters. For me, my number one value, I show this widely on a regular basis, is fairness. I've had that value since I was probably a teenager. I'm not quite sure where that came from, you know, whether it was nurture, nature.

Hmm.

Thank you.

what have you, but fairness for me drives how I approach things and that doesn't mean say you don't take difficult decisions or decisions that don't have really big significant impact. But ultimately, know, as I think about this in terms of how I show up, I want colleagues to, they may not like the decision, but ultimately in the fullness of time and that may be months or even a year or so later, they understand why the decision was made.

and that they were treated in a fair way. And that's really, really important to me.

Yeah, I can imagine also that people leave with that feeling. So it's not just talking about making decisions that way, but if they reflect, that's a really good way to look at it is that they say, okay, I wasn't happy, but I feel that I was treated fairly. And that just is a huge, huge thing for employees. Yeah, fairness, love that. Anyone else wanna jump into that?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

values.

Well, part of when reading through the book and reading through the workbook, there was a section about values. And I started to think about what my values also were. And I think I boiled it down to four or five. What I value most is transparency, which leads to sort of clarity and precision and thoughts and ideas.

Most of this has to be about 50 % of our students, and a of high schoolers, like the other one. We also build trust, and about good friends, and about being nice. But I'm trying to be the best person to bother in my mind.

Integrity is another one which helps to build trust and honesty. Another thing that I value is kindness. And I'm not talking about being nice, but trying more to keep the best interest of others in my mind. And that sort of relates to having kindness as a value.

Curiosity, a topic that comes back in your book over and over and over again, I find I value curiosity. But above all, when times gets tough and when the pressure is on, I think integrity, doing the things, like Ben said, consistently and in the right way, which continues to build trust and honesty, I think that has helped me throughout my career, but also in life.

very,

and when the pressure is on, I think that you are going to need to understand that there's a difference between hate and bullying. I think you can build trust about hearing that as often as want to hear about my life.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You write the integrity piece. You write both of you. It's like building this trust with the people that surround you is so key.

Maybe to add on that, it's also all about compassion. So this is a value that's resonating very well in terms of being true to oneself, to myself, but showing also empathy towards colleagues. I think this strengthens also the boundaries and the bonds between team members and...

. .

and boosts also the team cohesion. And at the end, when you show and demonstrate compassion also in a team, it's also about psychological safety. And for me, this is one of the most important aspects to really feel everyone safe, trusted, and being able to speak up.

and I think with that, alongside of integrity, it was one value which resonated most.

you

Yeah, it's so true that psychological safety. We're going to get to that. I'd like to dive into that a little bit deeper in some of the questions later, and especially looking at this gender piece, because that's what I'd like to look at, is about that psychological safety and the empathy and maybe some of the biases that I have also about what happens when men...

Okay.

setting up meetings and have those thought processes. So I look forward to doing that in a few minutes. But Patrick, what about you? What about your values? What do you live by?

Yeah, I echo pretty much everything that was said before, but I want to highlight empathy again, which I think is one of the most important values to me. And one person, a global leader that stands out to me for that is New Zealand's former Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern. And she actually wrote a really good book and it's called A Different Kind of Power. And I was lucky to actually watch her on Oxford a couple of months ago when she talked about the role of empathy.

and how empathy is often considered a female quality among leaders. And I found that term so weird because first of all, I agree, but it's when men say it, it's often presented as something that's the cute, like it's almost a little negative, right? Well, it absolutely isn't. It's actually really important for a leader to be empathetic. That is nothing to do with female leadership, but the reality is still that females actually do it better.

Yeah.

than men. That's just a fact. I think Jacinda Ardern just represented this so perfectly. And when you look at the COVID-19 pandemic and the countries that were led by women at the time, and they just fared so much better than countries that were not. And that says a lot. And a lot of that she claims in her book and her presentation that a lot of this was due because of her focus on empathy. And

I thought that was just a very powerful example that's really backed up by the facts and real life. So empathy to me is really key.

Patrick, well done throwing the first boom, the piece in the room about empathy and this idea, because you're right, we hear that a lot, that women are.

leadership roles and it like does everyone agree or do you obviously we're making some generalizations so they're huge I mean you all are very empathetic men so let's just start we'll lay that out there but do have you seen it also in yeah in your career growth in your career development have you worked for women as compared to men and seen a difference

Yeah, for sure. think there are... I've worked with a lot of male and female leaders and I don't want to sell anyone short, but if I had to just generalize quickly, I think the good male leaders or many of the male leaders that I've worked with are more action-oriented doers, kind of...

you

Thank

you

lead by example, have this sort of want to be the hero. And a lot of the female leaders that I've worked with are more calculative, more taking into account the views and the ideas of others before taking action. I have tons of examples in all of my career places that I've been where I've noticed this trend.

It's.

Thank you.

Thank

Yeah, no, I think that's I think I think I would say, broadly, my observations are that there's a more consistent empathetic approach from female leaders that I've worked for. I say broadly, you know, I think that is changing, though. No, I've noticed I would say, probably this side of the pandemic, I think the pandemic was a real turning point. And I wonder whether that was actually just

anyone else seen that?

Bye.

you know, older ways of leading and, know, as Cyrus just described, were less applicable, I think, frankly, during the pandemic. then I think it's caused people to rethink, you know, what leadership really means. you know, I'm really pleased now that you hear far less of this.

Mmm, yeah.

think

soft hard leadership, you know that that was outdated thinking you know decades ago but it persisted I think for far too long. But I've seen a real shift actually since the pandemic I would say.

Yeah. Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. So would you say it's more of a generational piece than it is a gender piece?

Actually, I think there is something to that. I think there probably is. And certainly now, if I look to some of the younger generation now and how the experiences that they have and how they're balancing, as a male leader, they're balancing home and work life.

Yeah, I think so too.

That's what many female leaders have been dealing with for years and years and years. It hasn't necessarily always been acknowledged and recognised, and that's, I think, why we are where we are today with many of the challenges that we see around gender pay gap and others that you talk about in the book. But I think it is shifting. So I'm really optimistic for the future that we will see more of an empathetic leadership across the board, regardless of gender.

Mm-hmm, yep.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And is it something that you teach? Are you able to, in your roles also, do you work with your team and do you teach empathy?

I think that's a great question. So I have to believe that you can to some extent teach empathy. My personal belief is I think a lot of it comes from your own personal experience. We've talked many times to me about the experience that I have with my eldest and with disabilities. From the moment I experienced that and what that meant for me, that totally changed my outlook on empathy and leadership.

Ha ha.

You

Hmm.

Yeah.

And my view is, think those people that have had moments in their life where empathy has had to shine through or really take prominence, I think I see that then play through in terms of how they lead.

Yeah. Damiano, you laughed too when you said, you teach empathy? you, what do you think about that?

That's a very good question. So I mean at the end it's a process and I think people behave depending on how you approach them and I think with that if you create a...

a space where everyone feels safe and free to speak up, then I think they open up more, they show up even more their true character. And I really think it's something that can be taught in a certain way, but for me I think the most essential

Hmm.

you

Mm-hmm.

issue is how you're approaching your employees and your colleagues actually.

Right. Yeah. Patrick, I know you just you're doing your MBA and you're doing a lot of right now around that and also on leadership. do you use is that a topic that even comes up?

Thank

Tangentially, it is definitely not. And again, it's interesting, right? I would say to that, I'm not sure if teaching is the right phrase here. I think when you like a leader, we as humans try to mirror that.

We try to do what they actually do. So I think the best thing as a leader you can do for your team is actually successfully show what empathy looks like or any leadership quality really. And if they like you and respect you as a leader, I think they will act more in that way as well. Just because it's you, they like you, they respect you. They kind of, I don't want to use imitate. That's why I'm saying mirror. They kind of mirror what you do. So I'm not sure if it's really.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

I don't know if you can teach, it's such a good question. I'm not sure if you can teach empathy because it's such a human trait, but it's almost like you live it almost like as a parent, right? You live it, your children will kind of learn from you and that's how you pass it along. And I see leadership and, and kind of investing in the next generation of leaders more like that instead of, okay, here's the slide. Let's talk about leadership. And maybe that's also why in an MBA program, you don't learn about it.

Mm.

Hmm.

You hope? Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

because it might just simply not be the right way to pass it on. But I'm not sure.

Right. Yeah.

I agree with Patrick. Can empathy be taught? I think, well, I worked at a very large corporation, 80,000 employees. There were the massive training programs, massive leadership programs. Empathy was a key topic, but the way that they taught empathy was exactly what Patrick said, lead by example. So our senior

Mm-hmm.

VPs would always come out on the screen. They would always share experiences. They would always

showcase a little bit of vulnerability to level set, you just because I have a SVP title doesn't mean that I sit way over here and, the workflow are so far away from us. think leading with empathy example, you know, spread throughout the organization and others emulated that example. And to go to the MBA, can you learn that? I also did an MBA and

Hmm.

Thanks

you

I was surprised during my MBA study how far away, or at least it was less quantitative for me. Sure, we had finance, sure we had micro, macroeconomics, but a large part of the MBA was about self-reflection, self-awareness, organizational structure and culture. And I think when you say, can you teach empathy? I think the right question is,

Right.

Can you instill a culture of empathy? And in the MBA, the one thing that I've taken away from that with me every where I go is culture eats strategy for breakfast. So.

Mm, yeah.

and then it would come back to the right way. Closer to the opposite.

Yeah, so true. And you're right. Then it's doing it every day, isn't it? It's again, I think that that's the idea of what Patrick, I love that you really kind of like walked them and like like the workbook because that's how I also feel that this mirroring piece, but it's like doing things over and over again, Ben picking up those cards and reading that like every day. And I believe that that's the consistency. And that was the idea, too, with the book is that to give

Thank you.

Thank

Here we go.

Okay, it's for women, but now I think we're starting to see that there are definitely some aspects that are that are for men, but it's that consistency and having this guide with you and going back to it and reading it again and hearing the stories. and eventually I would think to Patrick, to your point that it has to stick. And maybe that's how we become more of it by reading, seeing, doing, practicing and having that space to practice those skills and seeing someone else and seeing each of you.

Yeah.

When your employees see you, huh, OK, I like that. saw the reaction that that got that that sticks with me. So how do I do that again? And it's encouraging that kind of behavior over and over again. Yeah, it's like practice. It's like when you learn to write your name practice, practice, practice, and eventually you you get good at it. So maybe it's more practice than teaching it. Yeah, and I love that we talk. It's vulnerability came up, and this is interesting for me because.

I'm.

We talk a lot. Everyone, a lot of us have a connection also via the HBA, well, except for Cyrus, Ben, Patrick and Damiano. So we talk a lot about vulnerability and how more women show a level of vulnerability. And it would really interest me. our men, are you comfortable showing vulnerability and maybe not you, because again, I know all of you, but do you see it also in your?

We'll be talking a lot about accountability and how we're going to promote the run of the government. And if you need any help in you are welcome to contact I'll responsible. And please do not ask me to do this at home. I'll be for you. You're called up. you're not, you're not going this.

in your circle of individuals that you work with and leaders that you work with and employees and if you have a male employee as compared to a female employee would you see it equal with showing and opening up and being vulnerable?

I mean, I would say there is a generational shift where men tend more to talk about vulnerability, showing fear, being more affected, vulnerable. I think over years these evolved.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I there is more openness to talk about vulnerability. Also in a male setting, this was also a topic in the book, how men behave in a man setting room.

Mm-hmm.

Thank

Yeah, I would agree. Yeah, I think there's a big generational influence here as well. The difference I see right now is, I think there's still a difference in terms of the setting in which that vulnerability is shown. Typically, I think most men are sharing that vulnerability more on a one-to-one, one-to-sort small, very, very small group basis where they feel it's a safer environment and perhaps

So you see that. Okay.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

there's well established relationships, well established trust amongst that group compared to I think the vulnerability that I see on regular basis from many of the female colleagues and leaders that I work with, which is much broader, much more open. But I think many men are now looking at what they see their female counterparts and peers doing and showing in terms of their behaviours and I think that they're shifting and they're learning.

Mmm. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

and showing the value, the trust, the authenticity that comes from showing that. And right now, it's really, really critical because the world in which we're all operating, regardless of your company, is so complex, it's so uncertain. The pace of technology is changing that you can't be showing up with absolute confidence in knowing it or it. That is just not appropriate for today's world.

Mmm.

Yeah.

It is.

I think we all need to be showing up on days and I just don't know. I don't know the answer to that. And that's absolutely fine. I wouldn't have felt necessarily comfortable doing that 10 years ago. I feel very comfortable doing that now.

Yeah.

Thank

And what's the what is the value add to be to showing your vulnerability?

I mean, think for me, it comes down to trust. If vulnerability is shown, think it heightens trust, think it accelerates the level of trust, and I think it maintains that trusting relationship.

Mm.

Thank you.

Mm.

I The whole time Ben was talking, the word trust kept bouncing around in my mind. Can men be vulnerable? I think there are a lot of variables that go into that. Culture, being from different cultures, seniority in a company, how well you know the other person. But at the end of the day, it comes back to can I trust?

think that I am a full time adult body that is more depressed than boxing around in my mind. so I've been to be more mindful of the people that go into that young culture, people with disabilities, people with disabilities, a lot of people that there.

Mm.

Thank

person to be able to open up to them? Will they look at me as in the same way that I look at them? You know, I think trust is a major component. yeah, in today's world, in this generation, you know, is it easier or harder to develop trust? know, everything's quite sort of boiled down to 10 second clips and, you know, the hot topic of the moment.

Hmm, right.

Yeah.

How do you build trust when you're not at the office, when you're behind the computer all day? So I think vulnerability comes with trust and how easy or hard can you build that trust is a big factor.

and how we are going to try to get back.

If I may add, it's also allowing a failure culture and it's also interconnected with leading by example, creating psychological safety among all colleagues and allowing this failure culture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

you promote basically in demonstrating and showing vulnerability. And that's good because people feel safe. They try new ways, new things. They start to experiment. And I think this is the starting point of innovation. And for me, absolutely critical. Psychological safety and allowing a certain failure culture. And also promote that from the top showing.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

you

Yeah.

Yeah.

showing, giving examples. I think this is a valuable lesson which I learned and experienced in the past.

I think it's also really about authenticity. I think we want to be led by people who are human.

We don't want to be led by robots. And I think in the age of AI, we're even more worried about being led by robots than ever before. But I also wanted to mention that vulnerability, and I did a little bit of research into vulnerability a couple of years ago, is also a form of capital, almost like social capital. You trade it in for something else. And I think that's when it leads to what Damiano just said. If you show vulnerability, you can trade it in for deservingness. So you deserve to make mistakes. You deserve to...

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

show yourself as not the strong leader who knows everything. So it's almost like a chip that you can play when you think about it strategically. So I think it's actually a really critical part of being an authentic leader is to show some kind of vulnerability. The funny thing is, and I think we already discussed this too, when I talk to leaders about vulnerability is it's always something they show down. So everything like a CEO shows it to everyone in the organization, but not to the board.

Right.

Mmm. Yeah.

because the board does not, it's not a form of capital necessarily for them, but it is for everyone else in the organization. So I think how to use that, you still have to be very strategic. Unfortunately, I wish it would go in all directions, but I'm not sure if we're there yet.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah, you're right. And how valuable would it be if the CEO could go to the board and show that and say, I don't have this and that's why I need your help. Because what often happens is you hear, I got it, I got it, everything's fine and it's definitely not fine. And then that's where, and where this, the culture different, how many problems could be resolved much sooner?

you

by showing that vulnerability. And I think that that's just such a true thing. And Damiana, your point to the failure, because I actually have a failure log in the book that you actually document those and talk about that and bring it in and have those discussions because if you just push them away, you don't have these lessons learned. And how can I do things better? And I just I really love that idea that we talk about failure as as it's normal. We're human beings and.

Welcome back.

Thank you.

I have little failures every day, but if I don't talk about them and reflect on them and ponder on them openly, then how am going to improve? And I just think that that is just that. For me, that's also something really to bring into leadership and to welcome that. And that goes back to the trust. It's funny because trust has been like the overarching word of the day. think it's come up. It came up really early in the conversation and everything kind of leads to that that we do as leaders.

Thank

So maybe it's not so much as gender. if we go back to that, because I know we have, everyone has a hard stop, I would be really curious to hear, after having looked at the book and looked at some of the exercises and the stories, does it resonate for men or are there areas where you think, okay, this doesn't and this does, or this would need potentially to have a different approach or a different angle in order to resonate and have more impact?

you

for men.

You mean the book? The way the book is?

Are chapters areas maybe even not necessarily just as an entirety but are there certain chapters where you go hmm I read that was like does not resonate at all or the way that The words that I used or the way that I approached some of these topics. Was there anything you're like now?

Well, for me, when I received the book, when I looked through the table of contents, I zoomed right into chapters 10 and chapters 11, because to me, those were the areas that focused primarily on women. So I wanted to learn about the women's perspective. What barriers do they face? What about women's health is important? So was like, those are the first two chapters that I read. And then after that, I moved to chapter seven, because it

I'll let you all hear what I have to say about content of the chapter and the topic of the event.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's interesting.

it has a direct impact on what I do. I'm a professional networker. I'd like to think I'm a professional networker. learning a woman's perspective about networking and creating a guide for networking was of interest to me. And a lot of things resonated there. I don't have anything that I thought, wow, this could take a different angle because a lot of things did resonate.

Okay. I

But the one thing that I was surprised about was your last chapter, or maybe it was chapter 13, the legacy building. I've went through my whole career. I feel like I'm trying to build a career, focused on trying to build a career, have a life outside of work. I never thought about the legacy. And having that chapter in the book was like, hey, wait, why am I doing this?

legacy.

What can I leave behind for others? That kind of opened my eyes a bit.

nice.

Yeah, I would agree with Cyrus, there wasn't anything that I looked at that really garred or I felt okay, that's not relevant for a male reader. Quite the contrary actually. I was just using the other day the bookmarked with yellow sticky, the networking chapter because that just described beautifully how you should be approaching networking regardless of your gender to be honest.

Mmm.

So I don't think you would change anything there at all.

Mm.

Okay, nice.

It showed me how bad I am at networking, have to say. I'm just terrible at it. And I know it full well, and I have not invested really into it. But what I really liked, and I think that men, from my experience, have a little bit more of an issue with, is also this idea of mentoring and having a mentor. And we try to fight it on our own. And then when we do, it's like a badge of honor. did it on my own.

You

Mm, right.

Mm-hmm.

But when I read through all of this, think we don't have to, there's nothing wrong with asking for help, asking for a mentor, actually mentoring others, whether that's men or women, doesn't really matter at the end of the day. So I agree with everything that's been said before. I don't think there was anything really in the book that I thought didn't apply to really everyone. And that's kind of also one of the key takeaways I have from the book, because at the end of the day, we're all still the same.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Hmm.

Right? At heart. yeah, the society and organizations are structured differently, and for some it's easier, for others it's harder. It helps me kind of understand others better, having read the book, but I wouldn't say there was anything in there that I couldn't learn anything from at all.

Yeah. Yeah.

Interesting. Damiano, what about from your perspective?

So it's completely transferable and this was also question which I posed to myself when I received the book, if the concepts also apply to men, completely, absolutely. What I was asking myself was about the topic of visibility. How men and women are...

Mmm, yes.

Thank

pushing towards visibility. If they really have different approaches so that maybe women are more reserved and men more assertive in getting through, there I reflected a lot. I'm also thinking about the past and my experience and...

difficult to find a general conclusion about visibility and how also to push women's careers.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Right, yeah. That's an interesting point because that comes up a lot. we have done some mentoring programs and this advocacy piece and the visibility, because that's one of the chapters is how do I do that? And I've just tried to come up with ways and now listening to this entire conversation, I think we can all do it. It's like, how do you bring storytelling into your visibility? How do you stand up for what you want? How do you prepare for meetings and going into it?

I'm just trying to come up with a plan that now will stay in place for our Congress. I think we can all do this, like, at the party for 40,000 years. We can all do what we want. How do we prepare for anything? We certainly can't prepare for anything. different methods. We're trying different methods. trying different methods.

Do you, sometimes I think are men better prepared? Or there's again, there's this bias because we hear that a lot. Women say this a lot, that men are much better at negotiating anything for themselves. They're much better at promoting themselves visibly within the organization. I don't know if it's they feel more comfortable with it than some women do, but I think that's a good point, Damiano. That's probably one of the areas that I hear and see from my interactions that could be bit of a taking a different approach.

potentially or a comfortableness even from men and women.

Yeah, especially about self-advocacy. I experienced also female leaders being very good in promoting themselves and showing up and building the narrative around her person. I could learn a lot about that and there I was not sure if it also really applies as described.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Ben, if you look at any of the people on your team, would you have any kind of correlation with that, with how men and women present themselves or advocate for themselves?

I prefer not to comment specifically on my team because I'd be listening them. I don't want them to think that. Honestly, I mean, I think it's well documented. We've talked a lot about it during the HBA conversations and the summits that I've been to.

Okay, okay, not your team. Okay.

you

In general.

.

If you look at when we're recruiting, and you look at the calibre of applicants, vast majority of women that apply for roles, I think, will be meeting the key criteria that you want. Despite that,

you know, many of them may have been hesitant to work to apply. Typically is what we've heard or they may be unsure. When you look at some, not all men, but some men, it will be pretty light in terms of their ability to meet the criteria that you're looking for. But their confidence basically tells them that actually this is a great opportunity. I'm going to put myself out there. I may not get it, but you know, I'm going to have a go and you just never know. So.

Mm-hmm.

I've definitely seen that theme over the years. I think the other theme that I've seen again is this belief from many males that confidence is demonstrated through dominance. Whether that be airtime, time in meeting, speaking time, etc. presence, visibility.

Woof!

Yeah.

That's just not the case. I think it's much more subtle than that. It's rooted in your conviction, in your purpose, your beliefs, your values. That's what confidence means to me, in particular when people aren't watching. And I think many female leaders just have a better handle on that than male leaders.

Right.

Hmm, interesting. Nice. Well, well, well, gentlemen, you've really also given me something to ponder, like, do I need to change the title of the book somehow to now just a career guide to leave the woman piece out? Because it sounds like a lot really resonated at one. Just one final thing. I'm just curious because some of the writing, obviously, it's me. It's very female. it did that? What did that the style was that also something that you could

like really dive into, was it?

It was easy to read. I like the use of stories. So you tell the story of a number of different women throughout the book. In each chapter, there's a story about a real life case. And while I was reading it, was like, gosh, Sabine must have interviewed hundreds of women, like hundreds of hours of interviews to glean these insights.

Yeah.

But was easy to read, the stories were compelling. I read it in a matter of days. It was well done.

I'm just curious about that to see the style of writing if there's also if there's any kind of difference there that somebody yeah it's like no didn't ask talk a lot about art and masterpiece so i use like also analogies that are potentially not relevant or interesting but sounds like that is not the case okay

No, it was very authentic to you. As I was reading through, immediately, if I didn't know it was written by you, you could quickly get that sense. It was great. And I loved the fact that as I was reading through and I saw the examples, OK, yeah, I recognise that. I know that lady. I know that leader. Yeah, I absolutely agree.

I think

nice.

Yeah.

you picked some great female leaders there as examples.

and

Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to pick women that are relatable because we often hear stories in books about people that are so far away. And I wanted it to be your friend, yeah, your mom. My mom. my gosh. Yeah, my mom. My mom taught me something, Yeah, so nice.

Yeah.

All right. So as you leave, we've got just a minute or two left. So what do you think or what ripple do you hope that this conversation starts?

anything.

I for me, I think we talked about trust and authenticity. I hope that anyone listening to this, and particularly a younger generation, feels free to really spend the time to get to know themselves, the values, their purpose, and then to live a life and to show up at work every day in line with that and not trying to mimic or be.

Mmm.

anyone else other than themselves. That, think, is the future of Leitchett.

they are.

Great.

Well said. My thoughts were along those lines, you know, be proactive about self-reflection. I mean, after reading the book, it kind of inspired me to be more proactive about self-reflection, career development, foster diverse spectrum of perceptions to shape my own career, which I think in a lot of ways could be more richer and rewarding.

Thank

Hmm.

Thanks, Cyrus. Patrick, how about you?

you

Yeah, to me, I would say just be firm and demand what you deserve. And then once you have it, be empathetic and fair in whatever you do. So I think there is a time when you can be a little firm and be a little more, you know, I don't know the right words, just really demand what you think you deserve. And then once you have it, be part of a team and be kind. I think kindness is a word that came up in this conversation as well. And I think that's really important.

you

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. It is very important. Damiano, the last word to you.

That's very appreciated, so thanks a lot. Despite the...

language barrier that I bring with, I'll conclude this call. That's much appreciated. So as I talked about failure culture, I think it's also all about the courage to let errors and failure happen, to learn from it, to adapt and to grow. I think it's the only way to really grow, to let failure happen, to embrace change and grow.

you

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

you

Yeah, great, thank you. Very inspiring words, gentlemen. Thank you so much. It has been such a treat. Thanks for taking the time to read the book. I'm glad that it's resonated and I hope to see you all soon.

Thanks for being.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.