What if the best career moves are the ones that don’t fit your plan?

Hi, Annette, good morning. It is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast with me today.

Thank you Sabine, thanks for having me.

Yeah, It's a treat to have you here. And thank you also for contributing to the book. It's gonna be very exciting. That's out soon. And I'm really pleased because the stories you shared were so impactful in the book. And we're also excited to learn a bit more about you this morning with the three questions of the day to start the week.

But We've known each other for so many years and I've just had the pleasure, I enjoy our conversations. And I think what's so nice with you is that I always have a new insight after I talk with you and I so value to have someone just to have open conversations with and I think that that's so important for other women to have as well. So I would encourage everyone to go out and find an Annette or my Annette in this world.

Well, I have to say though, this is exactly how I feel when I spoke to you. It's like, gosh, this is so useful and so powerful. And I will talk about you in a little moment as well.

Yeah.

okay. All right, well, but first let's hear a little bit about you. So for those people that don't know you, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Hmm

yes, yes, so yeah, I'm a management consultant and I have been in consulting many years, it's over 20 years now. But yes, but it's not, Even though it's been a long time, I do not solely define myself as a management consultant because I started working in industry and that really is something that is still with me,

a lot. So I worked in eight different countries in many different parts of the world out in Asia but also in the US and a lot in different countries in Europe for different companies and I also worked in academia before I then joined consulting. you know I always had the problem that I find very many things interesting and I could never really say that's exactly what I want to do for the rest of my life.

And consulting allowed me to test and try so many different things in a short time. And I never got bored because that job offers me to see so many different things and different parts of the world, different companies, different people. And that's why I enjoy it so much. So that's, but my background is wider than consulting and I have a family, have two small kids. I,

I juggle that as well and I really enjoy it. And yeah, I'm a sports person, trained, I was actually once scouted to train for Olympia in swimming. I never went for it, but yeah, I was scouted. Yeah, sport. Yeah. And I did gymnastics for many years where I trained five days a week. So I'm also very into sports and today enjoy a variety of sports, but not to a competitive level, of course.

You see something new that I learned from you. I didn't know that.

Yeah, That's incredible that you're a swimmer and at that level, wow. Is that something that your children have inherited?

What?

My son probably, my daughter I still have to see she's not yet ever had a swimming class so we shall see. Of course I observe but I'm not gonna push them in any direction but if they pick up I would be happy to support of course.

interesting.

them. Nice. Well, It is interesting and actually I've heard I've had the opportunity to learn to hear a lot about your career and steps that you've taken and although you've been with one organization for many years you've had lots of opportunities as you shared which I think is very valuable working in in in the consultancy business. But If you reflect on your career we're going to jump right into that first question around making big decisions and so many of us or so many people

you

can have the tendency to play it safe and to not potentially take a risky or what feels like a risky decision. And I like the question of asking yourself, what if I don't do this and how will my life be impacted if I don't make this decision? And I'm curious to hear if you have any examples of this in your own career.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, look, I mean the question is such a good question and in fact it's quite late, later on in my career that I kept turning around when I had decisions to take and saying what if I don't instead of saying does it fit to my layout because I have to be honest when I was 18, 19, 20 I had a laid out career I said I have to do this and this and this and this in order to get that I had it, you know.

Yeah.

really laid out and I spoke to everybody about it and they all loved it and they were all impressed. I had my plan but then I came to a point where I had put all of these things in reality, late 20s and I had it all and then I thought so what now my plans come to an end and I couldn't make up a new plan. I wasn't able to to lay out a second plan I just didn't know. I didn't know what to achieve is next and what to do. So I was kind of free-floating.

Yeah.

What's next?

And at that point I had the most amazing opportunities though. And every time something came up I said to myself, I have to try because if not, I had the fear of it would always play in my head. What if you would have done it? Where would you be if you would have said yes at that point? I think my most, and as you said, I had many different jobs in within EY. That's why I stayed so long. They offered me, I don't know, two years out in Asia and...

Hmm.

could have as well been another job with another company in Asia. And then I did look after a big client, know, solely focusing on one client, so key account management, and that could have as well been a very different job. And then suddenly, and it was four years ago, I had the request of becoming our Talent Partner for our newly founded region, 26 countries, 10,000 people, and it's, so to speak, an HR leader.

And look, I'm a management consultant. I go out to companies and advise them instead of being responsible for our own people inside HR and then such a big, you know, kind of so many different countries. Yes, and I was like, you know, wow. And I knew, and I said, if I say no now, because it might not fit perfectly into what I've always done and what a normal next step would be.

a significant role.

Mm-hmm.

I knew I'd ask myself, if I say no now, I will always wonder what would have happened, where I would have gotten to. And so I said yes. And I remember that point that we had a conversation. And I remember that one line and you said, look, even if you've never done it before, it would compliment your profile. And I was like, yes.

We did, yeah, I remember that too.

Exactly! It's something I had never done before. So it would really complement. Instead of playing it safe, it's next to or very similar to what I've always done, and you gave me that that feel of it makes a lot of sense. You know, then playing to my save mind, it makes sense to add it to my profile. So it nicely came together and so I did it and I didn't regret a second.

Mm-hmm.

I'm out.

And it was a big responsibility. It was a big shift to not face, so you didn't have direct client contact at that point. It was mostly internal focused.

Less and less and less because it consumes a lot of it consumed a lot of my time. I since this year I'm back in my consulting role I did it three years and I tell you at day one week one maybe even Month one I didn't understand a single word of what they were talking about. It was so very different the abbreviation terminology. it was I really started from from zero almost I really a lot of topics when you

and it's so complex. I had no imagination and I found a new appreciation for that part of that job and of the people doing these jobs. It's incredibly complex. And I always rated by the amount of how many folders I opened for a particular topic. You can imagine I'm very structured with my folders and on my PC. And I had about after half a year 26 folders, meaning 26 different topics,

to cover in HR for this big region. It was incredible. And I remember in the beginning, my hat was spinning. I was like, my God, because I hadn't felt like new to a topic for many years at that point, like three, four years ago. But it was really a new love that I found. So I'm a big fan now, and now imagine, I consult clients on that topic, which I couldn't do before, but now I can. Yeah, now I can, yeah.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. There you go. Have done before. That's true. And there were days when you thought, what am I doing? And how do you, how did you deal with that? Because I think so often too, when we're in leadership roles, we're supposed to know all the answers and we're supposed to do all the guiding. And if someone comes to us, but you're in a situation where you

don't have all the answers. Maybe you can work through them with your strategic mindset, but you still, there's a bit of a gap. How do you deal with that?

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, Something I've learned a bit earlier in my management consulting role. You can imagine when you have big transformative projects you're responsible for, there's all sorts of questions you cannot answer yourself, but you need a team. So, and I'm a big fan and a big believer in different skills for different people. don't, I don't, I know I cannot know everything and I have no problem telling people I don't know, but I know someone who knows. In fact, my very first boss,

in a company he said to me, that, you know, what I admire in you is you don't know everything, but you always know who knows. And I thought, okay, and that's a skill. That's a skill, right? And so already in my big transformative programs I'm doing, I got very much used to the fact that I can't know everything. And also in that new role for HR, I had a big team,

That's your tagline, your mantra.

many people in the background and a big team that had these different responsibilities. And once I knew who knows what, you know, that's the first thing I got to know everybody and I know what they were looking after and I took good care of that, clear notes. And then I knew whom to go to and whom to connect in case of questions. So I didn't have the...

my own desire, needing to know every single detail. I didn't have that. It was okay for me to know like, you know, the broad picture and then to know who can have a deep dive. I was always very keen on learning. So I joined many of these meetings to really know more details and to really grasp like, you know, one topic is the future of the workforce with all the new developments, even though

I'm not expected to be the one who knows all the details, but I was so interested and curious to learn everything about it. It felt like back in my time at Cambridge University where I did some research to really be part of, you know, speaking to the experts, learning a lot. And then very often combining different things that I feel there and I hear there and I connect the dots and something else develops. So.

There are, I think, like 20 lessons in that short little story that you just shared about it's okay to take steps that don't feel like they're in the line or in this path that you have because you can look at your, I think, looking at your career as a whole and complimenting it can be so valuable. Not being concerned about not knowing everything because knowing the right people is so important and to build your team around you.

Mm-hmm.

And that your skill sets are to do exactly that, to know who to tap into. That's the strength and that's why you're in the role. I love that. Nice, Annette. Yeah, so don't be afraid. And you can always go back. So you shifted back into your consulting role. And as you said, it made you feel that it even strengthens what you're doing now.

Mm-hmm.

you

Yeah, exactly.

Yes, it so much enriched me not just by the fact that I can now consult others who get into the role or have these topics to discuss in companies, but also the way I work with the teams. It's very different now. I very much understand much more about career letters and ambitions and how to coach and prepare for, I was part of the roundtables when we evaluate,

Yeah.

new senior managers, directors, partners, and I've seen so many presenting in front of me, making their case, that now those who are coming up next, they reach out to me and ask how to best prepare. So I have so much more to give and to share and to coach, and I see, and that's one of the things I really enjoy, to really...

find out what the potential is in the person I'm speaking to. What is it they're really good at? And then to really get them into a position to bring that out. That's really something that I'm really fascinated by. And I learned so much in the talent world by how to shape the right career paths, how to the right conversations, how to position them in a place where they can really fulfill their potential and show their potential. So lots of the things I've learned in these three years.

I can apply now to my team or to my expert team, to my colleagues, to my round of females that we have in EY to support each other. So it's a lot to reapply in a different context.

Yeah.

offer. Yeah, the ripples are enormous. But could be dangerous too now that everyone knows that you're probably going to be getting a lot of phone calls.

And that's another thing. I want to take time because I know very often when in the past I always I not so often dare to reach out to others. and ask for, right? For example, my own partner case. I didn't sound it with anybody because I thought I can't ask. You know, as you think, who should I ask to take time? I should be able to manage on my own. That was very much my mindset 10 years ago.

So when people reach out to me, I say, fantastic, well done on reaching out. And I would make everything possible to take time for anybody, no matter how many people, honestly. And this is what I said to myself, because once they reached out, it's already this major hurdle they've taken that I never managed myself. Those who do, I really admire for doing it. And then of course, I take the time to do it.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that is so important. And that is perfect. my gosh, you couldn't have prepared a better segue into the next question because that's about who's impacted you. And you've had the opportunity to engage with so many incredible individuals. I've had the pleasure of hearing some of those stories, but if you could pick someone and if they were here with us on the call right now, what would you say to them about how they've potentially impacted you?

And how would you thank them?

That's again a very nice question. particular, I always like the second part of your questions because it's about how to... You know, the first one I hear often, who shaped you but not so often what would you say to thank them? So it's an amazing question and look, I have many people that come to my mind that they have been with me and they came to stay and they're still people I, you know, I talk to and...

Yeah.

share my career and my thinking. Some came and disappeared again and they were important for some parts of it and some just arrived. I think gosh that would be a great person to keep exchanging with on professional topics. Mind you very often it goes you know once you start with professional topics it very much gets a life-spanning conversation.

Mm-hmm.

So I had quite a few that jumped to my mind. I had people who were in my professional context, but also some who never really worked in a big career. And they're still very valuable to look at things from different angles and standpoints. And that's maybe also something that I would like to share with people. Do not look out for that one mentor,

that will arrive in your life and then be there and that you can regularly on a fixed term always exchange with. I think people come into your life as an opportunity and I had so many conversations where the other person doesn't know. I'm looking at them as my mentor or I take example for myself and many conversations I had that maybe even sometimes after some time I think

Mmm.

this is something that sticks with me and that's something I'm going to try to do without the proper context of now it's a coaching session and you're my mentor, you know, so much grass from different people at different point in time. So I would advise not to wait for the one mentor who is with you all your life and gives you the right advice. It didn't exist for me. But yeah, so yeah, I would...

Right.

What would I say to thank? I think it's one thing that often happens is they see things in me which I do not see for myself and I'm always surprised. So I would thank them to see things in me I don't see for myself and to believe in me when I don't believe in myself. And I think these are the two big things that...

Mm-hmm.

Very often people tell me things like that. Me? Really? Honestly? Talking about me? Yes, yes. Yeah, so I would, all the belief they have in me is, that's been quite encouraging.

Yeah, we're always we're always so surprised at what others see.

Yeah. And I love what you just said because you're so right. Sometimes I think it's with life. Sometimes we wait for this, the light shining down upon us in this aha moment and everything's different. that, well, some people could maybe that happens too, but it's, but it's probably less likely. And it fits so beautifully into what you've said about all of the people that have impacted you. It's not just this one amazing,

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

individual, but it's been so many. And just to be open to them and listen to what they have to say and just to jot down the ideas that they share with us, but also to thank them. And even if you thank them later, I just think that that's such an important thing because we forget sometimes to do that because our lives are so busy and we just we move from situation to situation. But even if you come back and have a conversation with them a year later to say,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

You

Remember that? Like what you did, a conversation that we had years ago that you said today that impacted you. That's incredible to hear. And we all, think, as you said, you want to be there for individuals. So it's so nice to share those thank yous with people. Yeah, nice. But then about you, Annette, also leaving your own legacy and how you want to be remembered.

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Yes, thank you.

And I believe legacy is sometimes we compartmentalize it and think about it like when we're not here anymore, but I certainly don't. I believe legacy is what we do every day and how we engage with people and what you said earlier about being open and wanting to support people, that's part of a legacy. But if you had to share also something that you would like to be remembered for, what would that be?

Mm.

Yeah, yeah. Look, the first time I had this question was 10 years ago when I was on my partner promotion. Celebration! And that was the question that they put out in the room for all the newly promoted partners. Please think about it. What would be your legacy as a partner? And you know, I took it away. What would be my legacy? And of course then you wonder, what is it that people will remember you for? And I have...

Mmm.

I have to say I have days when I wake up in the morning and I have like 30 things that I would, you know, tell you this and this and this and this and there are days where I'm thinking this is such a big question. You know, What will it be, You know, what is it? I because there was a point a few years ago where I thought I want to know what is it? You know, what's my legacy? And I asked a few people because whenever I came up with something, said, that's not you. No, that's not you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's a great thing to do.

Really so I was unsure and I thought who would know better than asking other people so I said hey you know if you know if someone asks you what do I stand for what does Annette stand for what is what's she all about what would you say so I asked about four or five people not more because you cannot ask too many people I asked a bit of her so what came out is what others said is they would remember my optimism

Yeah.

that they always feel I'm optimistic and nothing can get me down and anything negative there's always something positive. That's a saying I have. Anything, no matter what happens, everything, got 50 % positive and 50 % negative. Let's look at the positive side first. And maybe we don't have time to talk about the other 50%. So I'm always trying to get my most positive self and...

right.

You

and to look at opportunities and strengths. What's out there to win, to accomplish, to strengthen? And I think we once had a conversation about it. I do believe in every individual has a strength and potential. And I'm so interested to understand what is that strength? What is it that the other person stands out for and how to strengthen it and how to bring that person in a position to do that,

to shine by doing what they really like and that's normally what you're really good at. So my optimism and people set the time that I have for people and they feel they can always reach out and ask me and I'm always supportive, a positive and supportive environment. And if I make people feel better after I had an interaction and a conversation,

than how they felt before, that would be, I would be very happy to know that I make people feel better after having had a conversation, even if it's difficult conversation, right? I'm not only having easy conversation in my job, believe me, but even if afterwards they have clarity and an understanding and therefore feel better, then I would be happy if that could be my legacy.

Yeah, true. Yeah.

Yeah, That's a great legacy. And you're so right. The conversations don't always have to be rosy. And the challenging conversations can also, maybe there you have a little bit of a dip down, but afterwards you feel more positive because it's brought some sort of enlightenment or clarity to the individuals. That's so true. Nice. I love that. And I can attest to what you just said about wanting to help because

Mm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No.

When I talked to you, we were talking about the book, even we have a few minutes before we start the podcast and you're like, okay, this is what we're going to do and this is what I'm going to post and this is how I'm going to help you. And that is for me an amazing gift that that you think that way and that it shows again that you're looking to support other people because and and just how important that is that again, we're not on this journey by ourselves, but we're there,

you

to pull others in and to support others. And that ultimately lifts us up, which is your legacy, which is fantastic. So thank you for that.

Yeah, very early on one of my first mentors she said what goes around comes around. Yeah, so, but that's not, you know, I'm not doing it to get a lot back, but I guess this is when you start training to think differently. Yeah.

does.

100 % does. Yeah, but it does. Yeah. Yeah, exactly right. And to take that time. And the thing is, you don't know when it's going to come back. It can take years. And then all of sudden you think, oh my goodness.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Look, I've always been so lucky in my life. I had so many great things happening to me. So I, you know, certainly I always feel I'm in debt. you know. I had a prepayment, so to speak, with a lot of good things that happened. So I'm still paying back by giving back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Giving back, but that's a great way to be. Well, thank you so much for taking the time this Monday and chatting with us a bit. And it's a pleasure.

Well, thank you! But thank you for having me, for asking these wonderful questions and I can't wait to hear all the other people that will be part of your podcast. And thank you for this great project and writing this very important book and giving support to many by assembling all these information and stories for others to have all in one place basically. So very good.

Yeah, it's gonna be nice.

Yeah, it's going to be, It's really, it's a fantastic thing and the stories are what's key because it's such, it goes from CEOs to you being a Partner to a Business Developer. It's such a, I think it's such a wealth to hear from so many different perspectives and so many levels of individuals. And I think that that's what is interesting about this. It's not all, Sometimes we read these books and it's all just about sometimes unattainable positions.

And that was important for me to bring individuals in that I know that I have relationships with and to show what's attainable. I love that. So thank you for being a part of it. All right. Have a fantastic week and we will talk again soon.

Thank you. Thank you.

Same to you. Thank you.