Rewrite the Rules: Building a Values-Led Legacy

Hi, good morning, Sarah.

Good morning, Sabine.

It is wonderful to see you and what a treat to start the week with you.

Likewise, thank you. It's a very nice way to start a Monday.

It is, isn't it? To have chat about you. I think you spend a lot of time talking with others and about them and their development. So I think this is a nice way for you to start too, because you have so many wonderful insights. So thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast and obviously also for sharing your wonderful stories in the book, which is so close to being out. So very exciting.

wow.

Pleasure and I'm really excited for you. think it's gonna be so helpful to people. Needs to be out there.

Yeah, I hope so too. Well, I obviously know you and have had the pleasure of interviewing you for the book, but also working with you. You've supported Seuss, my company. as well. And for those individuals that don't know Sarah Matthew, could you tell us a bit about yourself?

Thank

I will do, thank you. So these days I am a business advisor with transformative coachings running. I do both and I've been doing that in the guise of my business, The Vibrant Company, since 2018 now. And it came about as a result of me having built and sold my last business. And in fact, that was the third business I'd started, so three businesses sold. to...

And at the end of the last one, I thought, no, I don't want to do that again, but I do want to help other people build theirs. so I took some time out. I went to the US to train to be a transformative coach because I had experienced and found this incredibly cool thing that I hadn't previously known about. And then I thought, well, that would be really useful. So it's the combination of

business know how and also working with leaders to give them the route maps or road maps they need, not just for the left brain functional stuff, but also for any blocks, any limited beliefs, whether they're individual or collective that are getting in the way. And that was having originally started in corporates. Had a corporate career, worked for four global companies in commercial roles. I'm predominantly by training a marketeer.

you

here. Yeah and that's how I come to be here with you today.

And what a varied career. I think the insights that you bring are so valuable from the experiences that you bring along because as you mentioned, you've worked in corporate and you've set up and sold companies along the way and those insights are so valuable. I can speak for myself. They were very valuable for us. So thank you.

Thank you.

And you're right, it's about looking like what, what, what, how do we limit ourselves? Because sometimes we get so focused on, on the companies that we're trying to lead and having someone like yourself come in and just even ask other questions is so valuable. So fantastic work. I'm sure it has to be very rewarding.

Yeah, thank you. You know, it really is. I said to someone recently, I think it's the most fun I've ever had and it's the most rewarding work I've probably ever done. And that wasn't necessarily something I expected because in my professional capacity, if you like, in my previous consultancies.

We were in the business of working on strategic communications, crisis management, things that related to healthcare and medicines where literally people's lives were on the line. And I used to find that incredibly satisfying and rewarding to help in that process. But this, you get really close to the teams that you work with, the leadership teams, the business owners. And as you say, just somebody coming in and

Yeah.

asking questions and also compassionately being able to see their own limits and help them get beyond it is, yeah, it's just joyous actually. thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was joyous for us to be on the receiving of them was also very joyous. So but what I'm excited for today is to in this series, I'm asking three questions and we'll just jump in and I'm already get you get going this morning. And you have had a very interesting career.

Mm-hmm.

And I can imagine that you face big decisions and oftentimes want to play it safe or not. And I'm curious to hear, have you, or could you share one or two, I'm not sure how many examples you have, of a time when you faced a big decision and you ask yourself, what if I don't do this? What kind of impact will I have on my life or potentially those around me?

Yeah, I was reflecting on this and I realised there's a bit of a theme because as you said I've had a varied career and that's because opportunities have presented themselves and I've asked exactly that question and so probably the first time it happened to that degree was when I was in a career actually at Glaxo, now Glaxo Smith-Kline and

doing very nicely, thank you very much, and I had this trajectory in mind of where I wanted to go in that career and I was going there and then one of the consultancies that we worked with out of nowhere it seemed to me came along and offered me a job and my initial reaction was no because it didn't compute with the path that I had mapped out for myself. But then I remembered that ever since I was quite little

I had this notion of having my own business. And so this invitation began to take root. As I reflected on it, I realized, know, the more senior I get in this corporate career, the further I'm getting away from that idea of my own business. And what if, what if this was how? And so...

Mm-hmm.

course it took root and then I started having conversations and I remember at the time my peers saying why are you doing that? Why are you going in that direction? And it felt like such a massive jump and I had exactly that thought but what if I don't? What if I don't follow my instinct? And then that happened again when I set up my last company, Virgo Health, which I am always so proud to say is going

incredibly strong and still to this day. Again, by this time I'd been part of the leadership team that sold our consultancy into WPP and it was two years the other side of the end of the sale and I was leading, was managing director for two consultancies at that time and again doing really well and you can imagine, you know, huge benefits package,

Wow.

security such that it is and I had this just this knowing that it was time to if I was going to work this hard to go and do it for myself and luckily one of my peers felt exactly the same way funnily enough she ran my main competitor but we were also friends and we said if we're gonna work this hard shouldn't we be doing it for ourselves and so I think that's probably the scariest time of

Yep.

stepping out into or from what looked like a real stability into the great beyond and just not having any idea if you're going to start from scratch, is this going to work? And you may have seen this, you know, certain family members going, I think you're crazy. I just had a baby, you know, just had a baby. I think you're crazy giving up the stability and particularly since I was the major breadwinner in our family dynamic at that time.

Yeah.

And it was exactly that Sabine, was, I just have this inkling, I have to do it. And if I don't, I think I'm always going to regret it.

Yeah, and that is so crucial because you don't want to look back at your life and have these regrets and think, hmm, just because I played it safe, yeah, what would I have missed out on? And it's still scary even though you take the leap. mean, I can imagine also the situation that you're in that was still.

No.

Yeah.

shoo a lot of questioning, okay was this the right thing and pushing through and but it's great that had a partner to do that with so I think your support system you had a great business partner that you are so your business wife and as well as your husband at home too to have that support system.

yeah.

my business life without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt.

Yeah, exactly. mean, he was very supportive. And I said to him, and you know the details of this story, but Angie and I literally built our houses on this business. We funded it ourselves. This was a time when bricks and mortar were vital for having the type of business we were setting up. So the cost of entry was quite expensive. And I remember saying to...

Nick, my husband, you know, if it doesn't work, we potentially lose the house. And he said, yeah, but you know, we can start again. You've got to give it a go. And I think I would add that in that you need to have a parachute. So there's some wisdom that gets taught in the business world, which is you have to go for it 100%. You mustn't entertain the idea that it won't work,

because that is setting yourself up to fail. And I think that's rubbish for most people. So I do add that caveat. I think for most people, knowing that you have a parachute, what's your way out? And you know, when I left Glaxo to go into consultancy, I thought if it doesn't work, I can come back to Big Corporate. When we left our jobs to set up Virgo,

Yeah.

We had a conversation around, well, what if it doesn't fly? What if it doesn't work? And we said, well, what's the worst that can happen? We'll just go and get another job again, you know? So I do think it's important that you think through, this is what we want to do. And what's our plan B? What's our parachutes if it doesn't? And then we never needed it, as it turned out, but it's much easier to move forward when you know you've got one.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

So true, yeah, and that you have that support system around you. So, message is to take the risks. Think about your parachute. Maybe have two. One in the front, one in the back. But to be able to take it. Yeah, but I think so too. often, When I first moved to Germany, people were like, what are you doing? Because this was also 27 years ago, and I didn't have a job, I didn't speak German, I had two suitcases, I was in love, but.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah, yeah.

I could always buy a ticket back. I think that there are always alternatives. If it didn't work out, yeah.

Yeah, and you don't know. I think more and more in an uncertain world, people are desperately searching for certainty. And if we're not careful, our brain tells us, oh, we know what's going to happen. But the thing is, we don't. We don't know what's going to happen. And even if this particular pathway doesn't lead us where we had hoped it would, we're going to find a load of other ones, right?

Yeah.

We don't.

Yes, exactly. And who knows? And that's the thing as well, right? If we had our magic ball, hmm, it would be boring because we would never know what else is out there. But you're so right that even if that, if it hadn't had worked, there would have been another pathway that could have opened up to completely different new and exciting things. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly, exactly that.

Yeah, but congratulations, it worked very well. So you didn't have to use your parachute, so it's still packed away.

Thank you. No, we didn't need to use a parachute. And I will say, you know, it's funny, isn't it? Because I work with so many businesses. I do feel incredibly fortunate. Sorry, just lost a pod. I do feel incredibly fortunate because in some of the businesses I work with, partnerships aren't always easy. You know, it can be a source of a lot of friction. But

Yeah.

as it turned out, we were very complimentary. I'd love to say we really knew all of that before we went into it, but we didn't. We were just incredibly fortuitous. And it was definitely so helpful to have that other person to bounce ideas off. And together, the two of us were stronger than either of us on our own.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

Even though we had both run a consultancy. that was one of the things that was a challenge. I'm not going to lie to navigate a situation where we had both been queen bees in our own rights and then come together. Okay, that can be that. But anyway, we did, we found a way and because it was better for us and it was better for everyone else and it really worked and I am very grateful for that and I do hear a lot,

Mm-hmm that can be a challenge. Yep, certainly

from leaders who find themselves alone at the top, how lonely that is. So, you know, if you're thinking about this and you're thinking about branching out, then do give thought and consideration to who might be able to go with you on that journey and together you'll lighten the load.

Yeah, it can be, yep.

Yeah, absolutely. That is just so important. Yep. Good point. So that can be also just to find a partner in crime and to take that step with. Yeah. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's a nice story.

Yes, yes, yes, very much so.

Well then, as you reflect also on your career and some of these steps that you've taken, I can imagine that there have been a lot of individuals that have helped shape you and have helped you grow. And if there was someone that you could pick out and if they were here on this call with us today, what would you say to them and what's the story behind this individual that had an impact also on your career?

This is such a rich question because I realised that for all of us throughout our career, we have so many helpers and even the people who we don't always appreciate their help or the way it's delivered are helping. They're still helping. And so it was very difficult to select one. if I had to pick just one,

There.

then it would be a gentleman who was really instrumental at the very beginning of my career and I would say to him thank you but I would also ask him what made you do it? so... because it turns out all these years later I don't actually know so I'll give you a very brief summary.

I had started with Johnson & Johnson. That was my first role as a commercial trainee. And it was a brilliant scheme. And you got sent to a day release to study at the same time. And during the traineeship, you moved around the business and you got experience of all the different functions. And they had said to me, where might you like to end up? Do you have any idea? And I said, yes, I want to do marketing. For reasons that we don't have time to go into, that's what I thought I wanted to do.

And so my very first placement as a trainee was in the consumer marketing division of Johnson & Johnson here in the UK. And I thought I'd died and gone to heaven in terms of my first job. It was so exciting. It was everything I had imagined it to be. And I loved it. So that placement comes to an end. And my next positioning is in

the export shipping division, which could not have been more different. if marketing was creative and fun and expansive and varied and all of those things, export shipping was process. Obviously, it's really important, but routine, it was day in, day out, the same thing with the need for massive attention to

Yeah.

Who's not that?

detail in the fine print, which is absolutely still to this day not my strength, unless it absolutely has to be. I'm not the person to be doing that. And I just felt like I was withering. I felt like my soul was dying in this place. And one day I was walking down the central staircase. This amazing head office had this incredible spiral staircase that went down the middle of the building.

I was walking down and coming up the other way was the Marketing director of the consumer division. Now I knew him, but in my mind I was this lowly trainee and I assumed he had no idea who I even was. And much to my amazement, he stopped me on the stairs and he said, hey, Sarah. He said, how are you getting on? And I politely replied, I'm fine, thank you. And he said, where are you now?

And I said, oh, I'm in export shipping. And his face just said everything. He just made this face. And he went, oh, that must be terrible. And I didn't know whether to laugh, didn't know whether to, you know, I'm this little trainee and I don't know whether to be honest. And I said to him, I can say I'm not enjoying it anywhere near as much as I did being in the consumer marketing division. He said, oh, I can imagine.

You

And so he said to me something like, know, well chin up, you know, it's just a placement, it's not for long. And you'll be fine. And so we went our merry ways. And I was just thrilled that this very important person even knew who I was. And a couple of days later, I was called into HR. And you see, what I haven't told you is that at that time I lived in fear of being fired,

because of getting the paperwork wrong for the export shipping. was like, I'm bound to do it. I'm bound to send a container to like the wrong side of the world. It's going to happen. And I'm, you know, it's going to be my fault because it's, this is not my strong point. And, and I, you know, that was my assumption. like, I've done it. I've sent something to China instead of Australia or wherever it's supposed to be. And I walked in and the HR manager's face was very stern and she said, well, this is highly irregular. And I thought, yeah.

no.

You

That's it, that's it. And she invited me to sit down and she said, right, well, you're moving. And I said, pardon? And she said, you're going to a new division that's been created and you're going to go and be the marketing commercial trainee for this new division. And I said, well, how come? And she said, well, you've been requested by Bruce Collins, the

that container.

marketing director who's moving from consumer to this new division and he had got me out and he then became my self-appointed mentor for the rest of my career with J &J and I would say that interestingly, regardless of what anyone may assume, he was really hard on me. He would give absolute radical candour.

He would make me apply for jobs that I didn't want to do on the basis that it would be great for my career. He never gave me any quarter at all. And it wasn't like I turned up as his favourite. He just saw something and he just pushed me and pushed me and pushed me. And thanks to him, I realised there were all sorts of things I could do that I assumed I couldn't. And he gave me the best,

possible grounding and so I would say thank you but I'd also say what on earth made you do it because I never got to ask him

Yeah.

Wow. Well, now you can. How fantastic and how beautiful that he's going to hear this, because we'll have to make sure that we that we post that. That gave me goosebumps. And and it is incredible, first of all, that you were honest when you saw him.

I can, yeah.

I hope so.

you

I think that that's so important because oftentimes you're like, we can't say what's really happening inside of us, that we do have another goal or an aspiration. And that's so important to be true to ourselves and to say it. But also that he pushed you. He really laid the groundwork for you. Incredible.

Yeah.

Yeah, he did. If not for him, all that foundational experience, I wouldn't have three quarters of it, at least, maybe 80 % of it, because in my mind it didn't make sense because I didn't know what I didn't know. Like, why would I go do that job that doesn't relate to this? And he was like, well, you're going to find out that you're going to need that and then you're going to need that.

Yeah.

and it just kept pushing. yeah, I didn't always have a great time doing these jobs that I didn't want to do, I'm going to tell you. But, you know, I am massively appreciative that I did them because it turned out to be game changing for probably the rest of my career.

Wow.

Yeah, incredible. And what great learnings for you along the way that you now pass on this beautiful concept of these ripples again, that you're able to bring those insights to others and that you bring to those meetings with your clients and ask those questions and think about two steps ahead or around the corner. Yeah, beautiful. All right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that takes us to the final question. And I think, Sarah, you are definitely living your legacy, I can imagine, with so many of the companies and the individuals that you have around you and that you're supporting. But if there's one thing that you would like to be remembered by or that is really important to you around your own legacy, what would that be?

I have to think about this and I think it relates to that you can be successful in business and be authentically you in a way that you are really at ease with. And one of the things that I am most proud about in Virgo, my last company,

that Angie and I achieved was running a business that was genuinely values based. And I do think this has been historically attributed more to female run businesses. But that's changing really rapidly. Like everybody wants to get up in the morning and go and occupy their time doing something that they enjoy, that they feel good about.

And there's been this narrative in business, hasn't there, for so long, which is it's dog eat dog. You we have to make difficult decisions. We can't necessarily put people first because it's all about the money. And, you know, look where it's taken us. We've got epic levels of mental health problems. We have probably epic levels of disengagement in the workplace, higher than we've ever seen. I saw some statistics at the weekend and something like

Right.

Mm-hmm.

three out of five Gen Zs want to quit. It doesn't have the meaning for them. So that's my legacy really is that you get to decide the rules and you have far more freedom than most people think. And you can have all of it. You can be commercially successful without selling your soul. So I would like that to be my legacy.

Yeah, you do.

Yes. Yeah, definitely. And that's the beautiful story. So if people want to hear more about that and living your values, definitely they can find that also in the book. And I think that that is so true. And I hear that from you. It's really interesting. I think every conversation, even if it's around different topics, you hold so true to that.

And I really value that and I can imagine that you're giving that to so many others as well that they can live by their values and have a very successful company. So you definitely have shown that. So thank you.

My pleasure. Thank you for saying that as well. that's what it is really, is that it's almost sometimes when I'm having those conversations, you see people have that aha moment, the penny drops, and they realize that they've been living into a set of rules that were never theirs. They looked to be utterly true. And so they weren't necessarily questioned because that had been their lived experience.

Until you go, well, they're all made up, you know, and there are many, many examples out there where there are organisations flourishing that don't operate without with those rules, you know, and people you just see them being liberated, which comes back to the very beginning, which is why this is so satisfying to do why it can be joyous, because you just feel like you are literally setting people free and you go, there you go. And then they're off and running.

Yeah, Yep, exactly. And I think today with the thing, what's happening in the world is just.

It's so important that that stays true, that you keep that true to yourself, to your own values, but then that lives through the company that you're in. And I think even if you're an entrepreneur and you're running your own company, but it also holds true for employees to really reflect on their own values and to make sure that you're working for an organization that also lives those values and that you perpetuate that within companies that you work for.

Yeah.

completely.

Yeah, I genuinely believe that everyone has more agency than they think. And that includes all employees. And this isn't about being combative or being in conflict. It's about seeing how to go forward in a way that does have agency is true to your values. And where you're not limited if that organization isn't flexible enough, if

Yeah.

if it can't see it, if it's not aligned, then there's a big world out there. Or go create your own organization.

There certainly is.

Yeah, so true. Well, what a way to start the week. Thank you so much, Sarah. Every time I speak to you, I learn something new. Again, just pushing this point about values is so important. So thank you again for that.

likewise.

My pleasure, thank you. I really appreciate it. So I am grateful. Thank you for interviewing me for the book and thank you for yet another delightful conversation today. always love talking to you Sabine.

Thanks, Sarah. Now wish you a fantastic week ahead.

And you. Thank you.