Menopause: When Women Rewrite the System

Hi everyone and welcome. I'm Sabine Hutchison and today we are going to be discussing a topic that has long been undeserved.

Ann Broché (00:15.938)
You deserve mana menopause. Couldn't that be the quote?

We should leave, we should leave this, we should leave that in there. That's been underserved. Maybe I'm just gonna leave this little glitch in there and just to let everyone see.

It is true, it's underserved, I'm underserved.

Ann Broché (00:28.406)
Well, if care becomes so good that you're happy to be supported during menopause.

Exactly. Yeah. So it's actually been underserved. I'm just going to keep going and misunderstood. And I think finally what we're seeing is that it's getting the attention that it deserves. And that's menopause, which you've already heard. Thank goodness we're talking about this more and more openly. It's a phase of life that where that all women are going to experience and we want to make sure that we address this topic and the importance of this topic. But

Yeah.

Let's also be honest, we're starting to see some of the eye rolls. I don't know if you ladies have seen this as well, but it's like, here we go with this topic again. But, you the reality is that menopause and peri-menopause affect over half of the population and it will directly or indirectly touch everyone. And We definitely see that the stakes are high for health, for mental well-being and careers and identity. And the system still isn't set up to completely support women through it.

And so That's why I'm thrilled that both of you are here today and that I'm joined by these two incredible women who are really leading change in this space through tech and through community and having some very courageous conversations. So Ann Broché of Uma Health and Victoria Finlay of The MenoPal. They are really reimagining what support can look like for women and how to navigate menopause today.

So we're going to leave all those little blurbs in the in the beginning of this. I'm not going to edit anything out. We're just going to go with it, ladies, and show the reality of podcasting and recording. So, you know, it was interesting. I had the idea to bring both of you on the show. I know I knew both of you independently and.

Ann Broché (01:57.654)
Thank

Yeah.

Definitely want to push that women supporting women. And I thought that each of the tools, what you're setting up and the technology that you're using is different and could potentially be complementary to each other. And when I approached each of you, you both said yes. And so I'd really like to just maybe we just start with that. Ann and Victoria, maybe we start with you, Ann. Why did you agree to come onto the podcast today?

Ann Broché (02:46.63)
yeah. Well, always nice to being in your podcast and your discussion with that, because I think that you're always bringing the right people together and empowering. But it was very nice to indeed be in this podcast with Victoria, because we're both tackling an underserved domain being the Peri-manopause-Menopause.

We both work on solutions that help women in this space. I think that one, getting to know each other is really important, understanding what is out there in the market. And the space to support women in permanent files is so large that it's important to join forces and to really make the one plus one is three.

Victoria, what about you? Thanks, Ann.

Yeah, look, I love collaborations. I love working with people. I think there's plenty of space out there for everybody. And when women come together, we can do magical things.

Yeah, absolutely. We're going to have some magical conversations today. So really looking forward to that. One of the things that we talked about when we were thinking about how to put the concept for this for this session together is a bit of myth, myth busting. Let's see if can speak today. And I'm going to I'll share some information. You both are, of course, the experts, but thought it would really be good to define menopause and peri-menopause briefly.

Ann Broché (04:03.508)
Thanks.

you

So as we said, menopause is natural. It's a biological phase and it marks the end of a woman's menstrual cycle. And it's officially diagnosed after 12 consecutive months without having your period. It typically happens between the ages of 45 and 55. I'm a good example. I totally am out of that range, way over. And it can happen earlier or later as we all know individuals that have experienced either earlier or later.

And then we have this transition and it doesn't happen overnight. And that's where peri-menopause comes into play. It's the years leading up to menopause when the hormones begin to fluctuate. And during this time, women may experience just a huge wide range of symptoms, irregular periods, hot flashes, some of the things that we hear fairly often about brain fog, mood changes and anxiety and sleep issues.

And oftentimes I think that they don't even realize it. Also, Although we're having these conversations about these, that this is a shift in their hormones and it's important to note that menopause is not a disease. So let's just clear that up right now. It's a natural and it's a part of our evolution as women. And there still is a lot, a lack of awareness and support and medical training, which we've talked about as well. And we really want to bust some myths.

So Victoria, why don't you share a couple of myths that you think need to be busted on this topic?

Oh, there are so many, but I think I'll start with that. You have to be old and wrinkly and decrepit to be menopausal. peri-menopause, as you said, is that 10 years before your periods actually stop. And what it means is that your hormones are like a roller coaster. They're going up and down and that can be daily. So you can be 35, 36. You can be trying to conceive. You can be freezing your eggs,

Ann Broché (06:12.017)
.

be pregnant but you can be perimenopausal so the two of those things can exist at the same time and it's all to do with symptoms. I think

Another myth is that, you know, our mothers and our grandmothers may have said, I was fine. Nothing, you know, happened to me. I'm absolutely fine. OK, maybe they were fine. And, you know, for some women, they feel OK. You know, they get through it. But we do need to look at the other things like our heart health, our bones, our brain. So the myth being that, you can just get through it, you know, tough it out. That is a myth because actually we need hormones to have.

You

Hmm. Right.

longer healthier lives.

Absolutely. Let's see if Ann throws in a couple of different ones that compliment your myths.

I can go on with mitts, but maybe we'll another chance to come in.

Ann Broché (07:09.811)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think one thing that I hear often is that women think this goes away. It's like menopause is a thing that happens to you and all of a sudden it's gone. The fact that your estrogen, your sex hormones drop and at a certain point are not existing anymore, have an impact on the rest of your life in the sense that estrogen serves so many biological

processes in the body, in the brain, in the joints, the blood vessels. So taking these away has a long-term impact on women's health, that's, think, one that I also hear a lot. It's like it's a short period of time that you have to go through. And it is true there is a difference between that peri-menopause where hormones are fluctuating and giving you all kinds of different.

symptoms, whereas the symptoms might become different, less existing, but the impact of the lack of estrogen, for example, is there until you die.

you

And that's it, you know, it's interesting too, because I've heard, don't know if you have the same that I've heard from women that say, you my doctor said it doesn't make any sense to test any hormone levels because they're different every day. And so, you know, we really can't get to the core of this.

Ann Broché (08:39.348)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, that's why it's based on symptoms once you're over 45. So once you hit 45, it's pointless doing a blood test unless you're going to do one every single day for 30 days and then look at it. And it's all about the symptoms. And that's another myth. I think that when people hear about menopause, they think, oh, hot flushes. If I'm not having a hot flush, I couldn't be perineapausal. But actually, there's, know, in The MenoPal, we have over 60 symptoms and there are more. But, you know, we said we'd start with these core symptoms.

One of the biggest symptoms that people get is actually weight gain and their body starts to change and those extra you know pounds of kilos are piled on usually around the mid midsection it happened to me. Our bodies start changing we're eating healthily we're not drinking as much because we can't metabolize it you know we're making the effort but yet our bodies are changing and another big big symptom is anxiety.

So, you know, we're going along, we're fine, we're, you know, we're killing in our careers, we're saying, okay, the kids are a bit older, we're able to, you know, get really into things. And then this crippling anxiety comes out of nowhere. It affects people waking you up during the night, you're driving, you're having, you know, almost having a panic attack. All of these things are driven by hormones.

Yep, so true. maybe let's take a step back and look at each because each of you offers just a bit of a difference. So we have The MenoPal and Uma Health. Maybe why don't we start with that? Because I'm just diving right into the to the topic. And I think it would be interesting to understand the differences and what you offer in each of your solutions and your technologies. Ann maybe do you want to start with with what you offer?

Ann Broché (10:21.94)
you

Ann Broché (10:35.764)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, Uma is a digital platform that provides women with access to information care, and that can be doctors, gynecologists, as well as menopause consultants or life-size coaches, as well as, and that is in a later stage, products. Now, we provide products to healthcare providers, but it will be possible to purchase also solutions that have to do, for example, with vaginal dryness or supplements.

So it's like a one-stop shop, one place where you can find everything that you need in peri-menopause or menopause, and currently with a lot of focus on doing consultations for women that don't find access with their own healthcare providers, GPs, gynecologists, and so on. So that is currently the biggest focus.

So you have physicians that individuals can speak to. Can they write prescriptions as well?

Ann Broché (11:30.386)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, so prescriptions are valid in Europe. So we provide digital prescriptions that women offer the opportunity to get their medication or whatever they need, bioidentical hormones or...

Yeah, that's interesting. Are people open to that? Because that's quite new. You log on, you speak to someone online, and all of sudden you get a prescription. How is the engagement or the reaction to that?

Ann Broché (12:05.524)
Yeah, yeah, I love the question because that was also the initial idea. So the company has started from my own frustration where like no one was willing to help me. And I was like, we're 2023. This is just insane that we can't help women in peri-menopause or menopause. So we've built an initial platform to really create that experiment. Let's I don't want to have this negative connotation, but it was

a validation, can we validate that women are willing to come to a digital environment to have a consultation with an expert in menopause and are willing to pay for that? So that was what we launched on November 8th last year. And yeah, to share some numbers and over the last eight and a half months, we have done over 1200 consultations. So to tell you that there is a real need, there's a real gap in our current health care system.

And what was even more eye opening is that of these women booking a consultation, that over 50 % books a long-term care track. So meaning that they stay with us for three or six months with intermediate appointments to really get that follow-up like, hey, this is just not a quick fix. Manapass, per-manapass needs attention, needs these little adjustments to find a good way of

for example, building up bioidentical hormones or to find a lifestyle adjustments that can help you find relief in symptoms. that was an important eye opener and that probably gives you some idea of are women okay with coming to that digital environment? And it seems that if you get the care that you're looking for, women tend to adopt these new ways of healthcare quite easily.

Interesting. And Victoria, tell us about menopause because it's bit of a different approach, right?

Yeah, so it's it's the The MenoPal. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And it's the like the Godfather The MenoPal. Exactly. Okay. So I suppose the The MenoPal is your smart companion that you can have in your pocket and it has all of the information that you need. You can ask the The MenoPal anything you can say, is this normal? Why am I bleeding so much? Why have I got that pain in my shoulder? What should I

The MenoPal, excuse me, menopal.

them and like them and a pal.

my doctor what's a high protein breakfast? What exercise should I be doing to keep my muscles strong and healthy? But what happens is then it will also generate a report for your doctor so

Mmm.

This will give all of this information and then we're using smart technology, we're using AI to really synthesize that information for you as a user. And it will come back with personalized reports and result driven information so that you can live the longest healthier life. So that is essentially what the The MenoPal is to the user. But for the likes of say Ann's Clinic, we have an infrastructure as

well. So we provide menopause clinics, doctors, any of these people who you know are in women's health. We provide them with an infrastructure so that they can actually log in, they can have the data from their with consent, privacy is number one always, but they can have that information, they can have a dashboard around it around their patients as well.

Mm-hmm.

We provide GP tools. So the GPs who are not educated enough in menopause. Unfortunately, look, not everyone can afford an expensive menopause clinic. OK. But then, you know, sometimes women have no choice. They'll put money aside. They'll save. But the most important thing is efficiencies, because what's happening is women try and go to their doctor and they're told, no, I don't know anything about this. You know, I don't have the information in front of me. So a woman needs to be able to have

the information before she goes about what to ask and then I suppose the doctors or the GPs need to have access to digital decision trees to be able to actually make that you know make the call on what's the best treatment plan for this one. So I suppose The MenoPal yes it's it's a lifetime so it's not just from perimenopals to menopals it's really beyond that as well because it's going to be with you for a long time because as I mentioned women are

living longer lives, but it's the longer healthier lives and it's to preempt the heart disease because estrogen protects our heart and when it leaves our bodies, women are much more likely to get a heart attack after the age of 50. One in two women will get lost your process if we don't actually do this, make the changes. So I suppose in summary, I'd say The MenoPal is your smart sassy friend in your pocket. Sometimes if I tell say what she was like, she's a bit of an

All

Mmm.

a bit of a Samantha from Sex and the City, a bit of Sinead O'Connor and a bit of Dolly Parton in there as well. So just to put you along in your life.

Ann Broché (17:16.787)
Okay.

Ah, that's a nice combo. Yeah, get to give her a personality. So theoretically, or maybe not even theoretically, women could use the report, for instance, that they could get with a The MenoPal and then make an appointment with a physician or a provider at Ann's. mm.

Yeah.

That's exactly what it's really about. Absolutely. Exactly. So we could have List Ann's clinic on the The MenoPal and then women from all over the world that use the The MenoPal could actually go through Ann's clinic. So from anywhere in Europe, from Ireland, like HRT is free in Ireland. Yes, yes.

Ann Broché (17:46.259)
Okay.

Mm.

Mmm.

Right. That's amazing. That is new, isn't it? I was just at a conference last couple of months ago and I was there actually the day that that became official. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah.

I'd shout out to our amazing Minister for Health, Jennifer, who has worked tirelessly to get this through. So not only it's completely free, we don't even have to pay the fees from the chemist when it's being dispatched. So it is totally, totally free for women, which is just amazing. you know, and that's why I suppose I'm not sure about the technicalities of this. Could an Irish woman go to your clinic, you know, have their online consultation and then you send it to the pharmacy here in Ireland?

Incredible.

and then a three so yeah

Yeah, there we go. Collaboration in the making. I love it. Well, and I also want to get maybe a bit to the core of why you both started in this space and why you set up your companies. They're both very personal stories. I think that's a lot of entrepreneurs have a reason why they decided to move in that direction. I'd love to hear your stories.

Ann Broché (18:46.984)
Thanks.

If you want to start.

Ann Broché (19:11.196)
Yeah, I already have given a little glimpse into what has brought me, but I've worked for most of my career in medical devices companies, such as Intuitive Surgical, known for its robotic surgery and in Roche Diabetes Care. you know, I've seen

highly innovative solutions. I've seen cardiac surgery to little incisions with a robot. I've seen quite crazy stuff. When I entered or when at a certain point in life at 46, almost really on my birthday, I felt like, something is not okay. feel I've joint pain and I've done

I didn't know at all what was happening and you have to know that I have a paramedical background and honestly I didn't know what was happening. I did a pregnancy test and now I'm laughing with it but at that point it was like me thinking that I got pregnant while the opposite was happening. So that was one thing where like I was missing a lot of knowledge and then the second thing is once I started realizing because I went on Dr. Google to look what was happening

My GP said, like, hey Ann, that's part of life. You're a tough cookie. You'll get through this. I was like, OK. But I was like, at work, I'm not feeling well. I have the impression that I'm not performing anymore as I should be. And then my gynecologist said, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is probably a peri-menopause cause. I was like, finally, someone that admits. And she said, we're not going to do anything about it. I was like,

wait a second, and she's like no hormones are very, very dangerous. We need to keep away. And this was a gynecologist of 40, 45. And I was like, okay. And then I realized like, that's concerning indeed, because I was like, okay, so we're saying that a woman of 46 cannot be helped in 2023 to deal with hormonal fluctuations and the fact of

That's concerning.

Ann Broché (21:22.392)
not performing at work, not feeling well at home, not willing to do any sports anymore. And I was like, I cannot accept this. And so that drove me into looking for the right partners. And that is a doctor, one of my co-founders, Dr. de Klerk, and then my other co-founder who was keen, was very skilled in go-to-market services strategy. That was the word I was looking for.

And so we joined forces and we've kicked off Uma to really find that or define a place where women can be heard, can be understood and can also find the support they need to continue life as it should be around this age.

Yeah, interesting. I want to hear from Victoria first, but I want to go back to this concept that the hormones are bad and the study. So we will talk about that in a few minutes. But Victoria, maybe you'll share your story.

Ann Broché (22:20.144)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, personal experience brought me to this. I suppose I'm 47 now and when I was 44, my periods became really, really irregular. So like I always would have thought that menopause meager periods are going to go less. Mine became more. So it started off, I was having heavy periods and they were coming every two weeks. Then they were lasting for about, you know, two, three weeks. And then it came to a point where they started at the beginning,

of November and I bled all the way through to January. Now look it was Christmas and I said I want to go to the doctor. was like yeah I'll be fine I'll be fine. I became anemic I was like really really unwell. I was having loads of other symptoms like rage episodes and being really like absent-minded forgetting words. Just so many different things. Another thing shoulder pain and hip pain. So like a pain here. Just unbelievable. So it wasn't that I wasn't going to doctors.

I was going to my doctor I went to a gynae who told me and you know a private clinic you need you just need to have it you have your womb taken out a hysterectomy hysterectomy. I was like my god I cried when I came out and I went back to my own doctor and she said no look you don't she said you really don't and

nobody said to me this could be peri-menopause. So again, you know, I went online and I found an amazing Irish Facebook community called the Irish menopause and I saw thousands of other women who were going through exactly the same thing that I was going through. And again, that's replicated all around the world. So then I was like, jigsaw pieces, putting them together. And I went back to my doctor with this information and they said, 44, you're a little bit young,

your bloods are fine, let's check your thyroid. How about a painkiller? What about antidepressants? I was like, no, I don't need any of this. I just, again, I'm an entrepreneur by spirit. I've just always, you know, always kind of like had my own businesses. I had a fashion distribution company for 15 years. We took brands from outside Europe and distributed them all around Europe. We did amazing trade shows and sold Ecom and grew brands to like millions in revenue, you

direct consumer, growth marketing, worked with pharmacies, brought the Diva Cup to Europe, did all of these amazing things, but actually the system was failing me. So I was like, I need to make a solution around this. I need to build something so that my daughters and actually my friends don't need to go through this. So that's what brought me to really sitting down and putting my business mind to it and putting the team together around it. And you know, it's taken a year and a half.

I I did an accelerator program in Dublin there last year called New Frontiers. That was a six months full time. Really, really, you you sit down and you go through your research and your product market fit and you get connected with people. So I really leaned into that and went deep on it. And now we're launching in a couple of weeks. So it's kind of come full circle around here now. So I just can't wait to get it out there and to help women. So we, you know, we'll sell in the App Store.

How exciting.

but we're also saying to corporates which is so so important for employers to support the women that work for them. One in ten women actually leave their job because of menopause. It's a shocking statistic and I suppose for every single woman that you support

Hmm.

Yeah.

The ramifications and the ripple effect to steal your words, Sabine, for that are just enormous. So if there's anyone listening to this who does want to support their employees or would like it to get in their job, please reach out to me because it's just so, so important. But actually for every corporate license that we sell, we are giving one away for free to women who can't afford it, to women who really, really need it. We're working with doctors,

They are enormous.

nurse practitioners and charities in women's health to make sure that this reaches the people that need it.

Yeah, I think that that is so key and that's why these conversations are so important. you know, both of you shared stories where the physicians that you were seeing, you don't, you didn't feel, I don't think very validated or heard. And we hear that more often and I don't want to totally focus and, you know, have this negative image of all physicians. But I think that there is definitely something, something lacking there. It's taken me years.

And I've just found a gynecologist who's fabulous and really I'm having now really great conversations with her. Initially, I met with a practitioner in the UK who wrote me my first scripts. I couldn't when I went to my doctors here in Germany, there was just no support. So there's there's something in this system that just isn't working right, which I think that we also need to evaluate. So have these conversations. But how can we impact the system and the medical training,

that's happening, I think, as well as it is really important. And do you have any insights on that? any conversations that you're having around that?

Yeah, yeah. Every single day. And that is, I suppose, look, it's not the doctor's fault that they haven't been given the information and they may not have the time to do the extra training around it. OK, so look, it is expensive to go to specialist menopause clinics.

There's absolutely a place for them because they know their stuff inside out as well. But again, not everybody can afford that. And sometimes women just need to go to the doctor. Some women might have a medical card or go in the NHS system or whatever. So that's why we're building out the GP tools that they can securely use to get that information and just use it as an online tool, just to digitalise those tools as well. Because it's really not their fault that they don't have the information. They only have 10 minutes.

with you so again it's not their fault but it's the system is failing when it really really is failing women.

Ann what's your experience with that with the physicians? How was it finding the ones for to work, to work with you?

Ann Broché (28:51.825)
Yeah, it's true. And I have a co founder who is a doctor and I said like, Hey, what's your menopause? And he said like, it's almost not existing. It's like this this little part in my seven he started even off as a surgeon. And he said, like, I actually, before you spoke to me, I had heard a couple of sentences about menopause. And that's it in my whole medical training. So and we hear that a lot is that certain

GPs start to refer to us, say, because I'm not against women starting a treatment with bioidentical hormones, for example, but I don't feel comfortable. I'd love to have someone who is really well trained in it and then reports back to me and the woman does well. That's the most important. So you see that doctors are

not confident and you have the ones that you refer to specialists and then you have the others that are like, I don't know a lot about it, so I'll say no to the woman. So you see you have these two options. We have to say that we have, I've seen the Belgian market more more doctors that start to show an interest in, we have both gynecologists as well as lifestyle doctors that have

start to get interested that take extra courses, for example, with Louisa Newsome or with other schools to get more trained into the hormonal health of women. And these are our doctors that we got in touch with and that said like, yeah, this is an initiative that we're willing to support because in Uma, we can see a lot of women in a digital environment where we have the tools, we have a platform that supports doctors to

give them the care they need.

Why do you think women are so nervous about hormones?

Ann Broché (30:45.488)
Is it the women or is it the doctors?

Well...

Or is it the doctors? That's a good question. Where is that?

Yeah, yeah, I think it's both.

I think it's both really. think, you know, we reference the whole thing around breast cancer, OK, but the study that was found to be flawed. there's that kind of there's the myths and the misconceptions around that part of it. And then there's anecdotal stuff as well. Really, from my experience, talking to thousands of women, it's actually not breast cancer that most people are afraid of. It's usually weight gain,.

you know, there's these kind of if your HRT is not fully balanced, if I suppose, know, could cause weight gain like anything. But when it's balanced, you know, it's not supposed to cause any at all. So I think there's the fear of the unknown as well. And until you actually try it and see as if for you, the benefits are absolutely huge for that preventative and protective health, you know, that I suppose we will see, you know, it'll take a couple of years with the menopause,

well but you know there's a shocking statistic that only 1 % of female health data outside oncology is actually on female health so that you know the rest of it like female health products were tested on men so that with the menopause with this you know anonymized completely anonymized like everybody's information is stored locally on their phone we wouldn't have access to I would know that Ann was on it or Sabine was on it basically all of that information over time those long

data studies will show what's good, what's bad, what affects people and We're also bringing in a GLP-1 tracker because again GLP-1s are you know so big now as well to help people with weight loss and sustainable kind of weight loss as well that there's going to be huge kind of correlations and connections around using GLP-1s with HRT and as we get older as well.

And when we spoke, probably sometime, I think it was last year, right, when I was interviewing for the book, you shared some statistics also around this particular study. And it's interesting because my mother even refers to this study and it's somehow so embedded in in this history and in the HRT history. Could you share some information around that around the study and the kind of the the flaws and how it works?

Ann Broché (33:22.062)
Yeah, sure. And Victoria, please stop in because I only might have or share parts where my mind is taken to. the study that you're referring to is the Women's Health Initiative that was done in 2002. And the whole setup of the study was to validate if HRT could be helpful in cardiovascular disease. So that was the upset.

What happened is that at that point, and that is one of the largest studies done on hormonal therapy and menopause, is that women got estrogen and progesterone. But an important thing that I want to mention now is that these products don't compare at all to what we're using today. So you have to know that the estrogen came from the urine of pregnant mares.

Thank

Mares I think it's mares, mares. Yeah. Yeah. mares. I think that's the word.

Ann Broché (34:21.324)
Yeah, like female horses, I don't know the words at Maers in English. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and they were taken orally. So it was another way of administering it. It went through the liver and it was also hormones that were synthetic or that were at least not bioidentical. Same thing for the progesterone was also a synthetic. So there was this like product that we are now comparing it with what could happen.

And so the inclusion of the women was quite, so the age where women were got included was 65. Whereas today we're administering or our doctors are administering it to women between 45, 50, so a lot younger. And so there has been this inclusion criteria. There has been like an anxiety about an increase in breast cancer. Whereas they're looking back now.

it wasn't really statistically significant that there was an increase in breast cancer. The only thing that they found is an increase in cardiovascular risks. And it's of course important, but there has been like taking conclusions and the next day millions of women have stopped taking HRT. And so it has had an important impact on how women

and healthcare providers have been looking at HRT and there's still this taboo about, yeah, HRT is different. Today we have bioidentical hormones, have transdermal solutions, so it don't pass the liver anymore. It's given in a different way at a different age. So there is still this myth, this taboo around hormones that is having a lot of impact on how women are treated today.

Yeah, and just to pick up on that as well. the average age of the participants were 63. Yeah. So yeah, no. So like I read it essentially, you know, that's really, I suppose, 10 years kind of older than a lot of women may, you know, be in menopause. So naturally, the incidences of the likes of breast cancer would happen. There would be a spike and, you know, there would be like a sliding scale going upwards anyway. And as you said, it wasn't even, you know,

Ann Broché (36:21.999)
63, sorry, so I it was 65. Yeah.

the bio-identical stuff. I would really compare it to the Andrew Wakefield, you know, that whole controversy around the MMR, that these scare tactics were used, they were newspaper headlines, you know, and it was just to get people to read it as well. So, you know, these kind of lines were picked out of it as well.

Ann Broché (37:00.783)
So,

I'm not familiar with that, Victoria. Could you share more about that?

Yeah okay so back in I think around let me think late 90s early 2000s probably probably early 2000s there was a UK doctor called Andrew Wakefield and he said that getting the MMR vaccine for measles mumps and rubella caused autism.

and I remember this because I had small children around that time as well and I remember being so frightened going and getting them the MMR and you know people were not getting the MMR for their children and then they were saying let's break them up into multiple different vaccines and you know it really caused I think some deaths and like some children to unnecessarily have you know measles, mumps or rubella as well all from again a very flawed study that was found,

to have actual no basis in reality as well. So this is where you know the evidence-based studies come in it's know keeping everything and facts and data don't lie and this is what we should be relying on.

Ann Broché (38:03.62)
you

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And to make an informed decision. I think that that's just so important to not, yeah, what works? Yeah.

Yeah, well, that's right for you. Nobody is. Yeah, nobody's pushing hate or HRT. In fact, you know, my cousin, she's my age, she has breast cancer at the moment and it's estrogen positive, so she can't take hate or HRT. Like women need support around the holistic, you know, it has to be holistic. And really, that's what I've strived to make The MenoPal men of health as holistic as possible, that you can have that support, that it's not just about trying to say, you have to go on hate or HRT.

Ann Broché (38:17.347)
Okay.

You don't. can do whatever you want to do and advocate for yourself and just try and just live the best, healthiest life that you can.

And how does that work then also with your physicians? So do they spend time, I think, with the patients? So to Victoria's point, do they also look at alternatives, I guess, for both of the systems? Do, you it's not just, I think it's important to know that from both of your, the clinics that you're working with and the physicians that you're working with, it's not that people are like pushing HRT. I think it's all,

Ann Broché (39:08.051)
Mm-hmm.

looking at that as an option, but alternatives as well? Is there time for those kinds of conversations?

Ann Broché (39:24.623)
Yeah. So an important thing to know is that your first intake takes half an hour. So that already gives plenty of opportunity to discuss your current situations, what you're looking for to inform women. So that is an important first step. Secondly, is that as we have a digital platform, women that register on our

on our platform that is for free. But once you book a consultation, you get the ability to fill in already a lot of information yourself about your lifestyle, about your cycle, what is the current medication you're taking. So the whole intake is already done partially by the woman who registers all the information and then that half hour is really to discuss what is there, what are you looking for?

Why would you look into this? What is an alternative? So that is one thing. And all our doctors look, are specialized or are trained to offer both HRT if a woman wants that, or if the doctor thinks that that is probably the best way to go forward. Or also look at lifestyle options. Many women, it's often it's complimentary. It's not like, or you get this or you get that. No, no, no. You need a good lifestyle to also benefit from

HRT in the best possible way. But sometimes HRT is not an option or women just choose to not go for HRT and then it's about lifestyle. It's about healthy nutrition. It's about sleeping hygiene. It's about reducing stress. It's about looking at several other options. so both are often combined.

Yeah. And I think what's so fantastic about what both of you are offering is actually time to reflect that you take the time and you're inputting information about yourself. You're reflecting on what's happening in my body right now because we rush around and everything is so fast paced. And Victoria, I think too with the The MenoPal is that it's also you're entering in information, right? You're answering questions and

Yeah.

Ann Broché (41:20.238)
Mm.

Ann Broché (41:27.406)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you can do all of that.

and spending the time to reflect. And I think that that's such an important thing is to take that time.

Ann Broché (41:47.108)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I suppose with us, yes, there's the user impulse about your symptoms, about your mood, your diet, exercise, all of that. But actually you can just track track with your wearables as well. So you can track your data from your, you know, your aura ring or your Apple watch or your garment so that you're getting your sleek data. You're getting all of those kind of, you know, of your heart is kind of if you're having like a hot flush or you're having a panic attack or something like that as well. It's not only it's that kind of really strong

bio data coming in as well so you can get the full picture and then we look at triggers as well because it's really important to see what are the triggers you know like it's you say god I wake up every Saturday morning with such a bad headache well if you've had a bottle of wine the night before you're gonna wake up with a headache but you know if you haven't done you know and you're still getting the headache there's something going on we might say I had six espressos today now I have a headache you know I just think there's a really important part of this that we haven't really touched on which is I suppose the

Ann Broché (42:40.016)
Mm.

mental health aspect of it. And it's it's just such a huge, you could nearly do a whole separate podcast, but I really wanted to, you know, just touch on it. Six, during, during the time, okay, We go from the age of 45 to 54, there's a 6 % increase in the suicide rate for women.

Absolutely.

Okay, and that is directly connected to our hormones fluctuating. You you hear of women, she just went off to the shop. She was fine. She just went on a run, you know, where she gone and then she's just gone and she seemed fine, but underneath at all she wasn't. We need to open up this conversation more and it's okay not to be okay and for women to talk about this because I found that it was when I spoke to people about me really heavily bleeding or feeling absolutely crazy,

Ann Broché (43:21.038)
.

or having a rager at my family. Other women were like, yeah, yeah, I absolutely can completely relate to that as well. So I think we need to have more conversations about the mental health impact of going through peri-menopause and menopause.

Ann Broché (43:50.767)
you

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that is so true. And that's why we're here today. I that's why we're having these conversations. That's why I think it's also so important to try and reach also a younger audience because they're not there yet and that may be parked and you think, you know, I've got a long time before that happens. But this awareness, you know, I think all of us have have hit that peri-menopause and menopause stage.

And although we're in an industry and we're quite educated on this topic, we still I, I didn't, I didn't do the right thing. I didn't, you know, went to my GP gave me also some really wild things to do that weren't very helpful. And I think to make that path to information easier is so important. And that's why it's so crucial that we talk about this and we have these conversations at the dinner table and we have our

Ann Broché (44:34.708)
Thank

you

our daughters and goddaughters and friends and hear about this. So they're aware that it's coming.

Like people didn't talk about periods years ago. You couldn't say the word, you know, period when you're young and now like my daughters, it's no big deal. You know, it's a dad. get some pads, get some tampons, whatever. And it's just not a big deal. So I feel that that moment is coming now for menopause, peri-menopause, that it's OK to talk about it. I often describe it as reverse puberty, that during puberty, your hormones are coming into your body. And then during peri-menopause, they're leaving your body. So we also get the mood swings and the

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

spots and the hair places that we don't expect. So you know it's two bookends of a woman's life. We still live after it but it is something that we continue to go through.

Ann Broché (45:33.038)
Thank

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, it's a stage. It's one of the many stages that we're in in our lives. And again, if we can help people be more aware, and to your point, Victoria, about the mental health side of things, if you're younger and you move into this phase and you are aware, then you can go potentially and ask for help because you realize that it does have something to do with your hormonal level. Yeah.

It's totally generational. we're Gen X. We are the generation that just put up and shut up, you know, we're like, OK, yeah, we'll we'll just do what we're told. Actually, now that millennials are coming into peri-menopause, these are like women who were born in the 1980s, like to me, the 80s was 20 years ago. But actually, you know, these are women in their 40s now. But generationally, they have grown up using apps. They've grown up advocating for themselves, speaking out. This is why there is this culture of

change and cultural shift that we have to embrace and go with and build the solutions around because again we are the change makers if we don't do it who are going to do it? When?

Yeah, we have to be talking about it. That's right. yay, that you ladies are out there making change and offering solutions to so many women. I'm so grateful that you're doing that. And Who knows, maybe the two of you will find a way to collaborate because that's also a fantastic thing. The more we do that, the stronger we are.

Ann Broché (47:12.941)
In my mind there is already this little radar like, this would be nice to integrate in Uma and this guy.

Absolutely, any clinics out there come to us, will absolutely digitalise you completely and help you to reach more women and help more women be able to be reached by you as well. So it's collaboration and again Sabine thanks for having us today and thanks for bringing us together because the more women work together and collaborate the better the world is going to be.

Ann Broché (47:33.677)
and listen.

Exactly. And the more questions we ask and the more comfortable we are asking questions and discussing, the further we'll get. So thank you so much. Yeah, for the very honest and thank you for sharing your personal stories. That's not always easy to do. But again, I'm a big I'm a big advocate for sharing the stories because I think people relate and find themselves in other stories. And I think that that definitely will help the listeners.

Ann Broché (48:05.384)
and

And hopefully we've been able to uncover a bit of a mystery around menopause. And thanks for your tools and your systems and the work that you're doing. And maybe, you know, the future is going to rewrite the way that they deal with peri-menopause and menopause. So let's hope that they do. And some of these myths get busted. If there's and if people want to find you, where can they do that? Can you share your your any information, websites, LinkedIn? Where can people reach out to you?

Yeah, absolutely. So you can find us at themenopal.com or if you want to reach out to me directly on LinkedIn, I'm Victoria Finlay.

Ann Broché (48:40.561)
Yeah.

Ann Broché (48:52.203)
Yeah, and so for us, it's Uma Health and Uma is U-M-A Health in English, .be because we're based in Belgium. And my name is Ann Broché. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. So feel free to reach out and have a discussion.

Thanks so much for what you're all are doing. It was a pleasure having you on the call today. Thanks. Bye.

Ann Broché (49:17.005)
Thank you.

Thanks, Sabine.

Ann Broché (49:19.713)
Thank you for the setup. Thank you so much.