A Life Less Planned: Dr. Caroline Clarinval on Purpose, Presence, and the Power of Saying Yes

Hello, good afternoon, Caroline. It's so good to see you. I love our conversations. It always makes me happy when I know we have a time book. So it's thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

Thank you so much Sabine for having me. It's always a delight to spend some time with you and to just exchange views, ideas, thoughts, irrespective of how creative or crazy they can be.

Yeah, that's the fun part, isn't it? Sometimes just having these conversations. For those of you that didn't, well, Caroline, we're speaking a bit before we started recording and we've actually planned a book tour for 2026, right? So stay tuned for that.

you

I have some write-up to do before then, I think.

Exactly. Well, you know, our paths crossed. It's really interesting. We were both on a panel at Davos this year. and were fortunate. For me, this was just one of the great, a great fortune that that we ran into each other and we started speaking and I felt like we were just old friends that have reconnected and it was so wonderful. And from that panel evolved into you quickly

accepting to be in the book that I'm writing, the Ladder. And then here we are today in the podcast. But for those who do not know you, you want to share a little bit about yourself.

Yes, so first of all, I think that Davos or meeting you at the WEF was one of those opportunities in life that you only get once in a while. You know, they don't happen that often. But when you have those opportunities, when they present themselves to me, I always try to grab them and then see what happens. And maybe that explains somehow a little bit my pathway. So my name is Dr. Caroline Clarinval.

I have worked for over, yeah, close to 25 years now, essentially in humanitarian context, assisting populations affected by conflict or doing a bit more health systems development.

And so I think those 25 years where I was essentially abroad shaped me in many, many ways. And I loved that career. It was absolutely fascinating. I have a background in communications, public health, PhD in biomedical ethics and law, and a master's degree in human rights law. So you can see I'm very...

sort of cross-cutting. I'm not what you would call a specialist per se, but I think those different areas of expertise helped me in my current role as a Manager of the WHO country office in Romania a lot. yeah, I come in with a bit of a different background than many of my colleagues, but I think it does help me to have knowledge and expertise in

multiple different areas that are in the end very complimentary.

Yeah, Absolutely, And I think that that's what interested me also.

Thank you.

in our conversation, just the paths and the threads and how that all wove together to bring you to where you are today. And I love that idea that you don't have to have a set career path. And I think that that's kind of what the, if you look at the book, it's beyond the ladder. It's not having these steps. It's getting squiggly and going all over the place, but staying true to yourself. And that's something that I definitely believe that you've done as well in your career.

so far.

Yeah, and I think what I like about what you're saying is when you look at the personal narrative, in the end, in hindsight, it all makes sense, but it would have been impossible to plan this out in any formal way. So what I keep saying to people is that there is just no logic to life. It's not because you do one thing that that will then automatically lead to the next and then to the next.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, true.

much of it is really linked to opportunities that just happen like that and either you dare grab them or you don't. And I don't think all of that is necessarily a carefully, I mean definitely not in my case, it's not necessarily carefully thought through process. Really not.

Yeah, yeah.

You

But sometimes it is, so it'll be interesting for people to read the book and to read your stories because, it feels like it's not, but you always stayed true to also who you are and you also always listen to yourself. So there was one common piece throughout, and you seized opportunities, which I think is amazing.

Yes, I do. So I do reflect a lot, but it's not something that is necessarily always planned ahead. So whenever you know when you're in these moments in life where you're like, okay, great, I'm at in a new moment in my life. I have achieved a number of things, but I want to move in a different direction. You literally oftentimes you have no idea in which direction you're going to go. You have to sort of

not necessarily reinvent yourself but maybe redesign a little bit. And it's those moments where I oftentimes just try to be very alert of what are the opportunities that present themselves as well. And I also noticed that when things seem to, how can I say, when you have to put in an enormous amount of effort in order to pursue a certain objective, which you think is the right thing to do,

it just doesn't really work out. That's in my case that was never the right path. But when things just happen naturally and sort of a little bit easily, not necessarily without having to make the necessary effort, then that was sort of meant to be. yeah I think it's that approach that has helped me quite a bit.

nice.

It's just also, it does require a certain level of certainty, of, and confidence, not necessarily self-confidence, because that's a whole other subject, but just of confidence in life, you know? With the profound belief that somehow things will work out fine.

Yeah,

That is a great thing to say to yourself every morning when you wake up, right? To have that, that could be, that is a nice mantra to use every day. And it's interesting because you've touched on a couple of things that I'd like to dive into a bit deeper. So the first question that I'm asking everyone is around facing big decisions. And you've had quite a few of those. And we talk about playing it safe.

No.

Or do you jump and you take some risk? And my phrase, what I do when I take some steps is not what if, but what if I don't? How is the outcome if I don't make this decision or I don't take this position or whatever the situation that you're in? If you ask yourself that, if you reflect on your career and ask yourself that.

Could you share with us a specific moment that created also a significant ripple in your career path with making that decision?

Yes, there was one which was at the origin of it all. I was about 25 years old. I'd just finished my studies and I literally had no clue on what I would do next. And then a friend of a friend of a friend told me that I should apply to this international organization. And I thought of all the ideas that my friends or their friends could come up with, that's the only one that stuck with me.

And I thought, hang on, that would be an idea. So I went through the process and, funnily enough, although I was still very, young, I passed and I was sent to Africa. And when I think about that moment, so that was the most decisive change in my life because from that moment onwards, I chose my entire career path up until now. And...

And it was just one of those moments where you know that if you go that direction, you can always come back, right? I can always return home. But you will never be the same. So you will never be the same person simply because you'll be exposed to so many new experiences, particularly since we're working in countries affected by conflict. So you would have to have all you will have all these experiences with you.

So true. Yeah.

And I think it's that that then makes the fundamental difference. It's not the moment where you leave, where you decide to leave, but it's more the moment once you have left and you spend your first few years in a mission or in different places, you discover all of that, all of those countries, cultures, languages, geopolitical situations, foods, stuff, whatever, you know.

They just start to enrich you as a person. And there's also many of those moments that you will never ever be able to forget anymore. There are encounters that will shape you that will never be able to forget anymore. And I think it's more those moments that then in the end show you that now you have made a decision that will forever change you.

And because I simply even today I still think about many of those people that I have met. They accompany me in my thoughts regularly. And I think it's also with this notion of bearing witness of situations where populations are just confronted with some of the most difficult situations in their lives. And I think it's that. It's that decision when you decide to leave a very stable

I mean, I was leaving Switzerland, right? A beautiful country to start that career in the humanitarian context where I knew only in hindsight that I would never ever be the same person again. And I was unaware of how much that that would impact me in the end. But I was also unaware of how fascinating it would be.

Mm-hmm.

Because when I now reflect back, because I've done that twice. I've left Switzerland and the most stable environment twice. So I did it first at 25 and then I did it again around 30, what else? Close to 40s. And I left Switzerland again because I had gone home for a moment.

I think in the end, in hindsight, what I find the most fascinating is, or what I would have missed, to answer your question, is I would have missed out on one of the most richest lives I could ever have had. And I've learned so much, I've experienced so much, I was able to shape people around me, I was able to

Mm-hmm.

provide support in hopefully a meaningful way to millions of others. That feeling of even if it was not always perfect and sometimes very difficult of still having achieved something meaningful in life that is something I would not have wanted to miss. Had I not done that, I don't know, had I not taken those decisions, I don't know in which.

of a life I would have had. Maybe a happier one. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, You never know. But It's also interesting because your studies were, did they match with you making this decision or would you have gone into another more, or was it expected maybe that you go into another more traditional role that fits with your studies?

I think so. I was expected also not only by because of that but also because of the environment that surrounded me I was expected to join a Swiss multinational and just live my life there. And I did sort of join a Swiss multinational just not in the business, not in the for-profit business but in the non-for-profit business. I think.

right.

It was a very wise choice, but the studies, they then...

I then studied, I continued to study throughout my time working. So I was sort of studied in parallel in order to become better at my job.

But it's a really clear signal too that in order to have a successful career, we don't have to stick to these boundaries. I studied this, I need to do this, I need to go in these directions. But being open to new directions can lead to an incredibly rich life as you've described. So be open to that, I think, is a really key message.

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, and to have that certainty that these opportunities will show and that we also have the skills to actually identify them. Sometimes we lack a little bit the courage because many people that I've met over the years, said, ⁓ I always wanted to join that organization, I always wanted to do that. And they sort of never dared. And when I heard that sentence, I'm like, but what?

Withheld them from making that decision, right? And what level of uncertainty or what level of security were they expecting or missing? What fears did they prevent them from making that decision? Whereas for me, it was just the most obvious thing to do, right? And this is when I say that it has not always been carefully thought through. Let's be very, very clear. So many of these decisions were

Yeah.

very spontaneous.

Well, and if you look back at your career, have individuals that shape us, that guide us, that influence us, and have a very positive impact. if you reflect on your career to where it has taken you in the past, are there individuals that have had a significant impact? And if they were here right now, what would you say to them?

So there's two people for sure. One is my dad for the unexpected reason simply because he was extremely bright, constantly had this idea of thinking a contrario which was extremely irritating at moments. But the way he looked at life was so different from the norm

that it was also very refreshing and it allowed it always so always asked me to continue to critically think of why do we do certain things in certain ways? Are there other ways of doing whatever we are supposed to do? Can we think about it in a different way? And it was this idea of not necessarily following the standard path and

and to be open to the lifestyle that I chose and to be extremely supportive because he was in the end with looking after my kids for over 10 years. Who does that? He was with me in Africa, in the Middle East, in Asia and without his support I would not have been able to actually manage this lifestyle at all. So I'm extremely thankful.

Yeah.

What a gift that he went

on these that he was on this journey with you. That's fantastic. Yeah.

Yes, and he loved it. Yes.

So it's, he really did. And he had the capacity to do it, right? So it's not everyone can do it, but not only do you have the capacity, but you also have the will and the joy to just tag along with us. And it was absolutely not demanding at all, it was just beautiful, beautiful way,

of living together in a three generation family in the end, irrespective of the continent in which we were. We were moving every two years and he was fine with that as well. And what would I tell him? Yeah, I think it's, I'd love to tell him that, and I think I did before he passed away, I had the opportunity to tell him that my life is too short,

to pay him back for everything he has done for us and that I regret that. And I think when we have those precious people with us that are here, that are around us, it's good to continue telling them how much they mean to us and how much we depend on them and to just simply value their presence,

couldn't value his cooking skills. So, I think it's that, it's to just seize that moment and thank them for everything that they've done to allow us to become who we are in the end. And then the second person would be my PhD supervisor, a woman who...

you

single-handedly handles an entire institute. Her family is extremely bright as well. And she's the one who gave me the opportunity to then do my PhD and to support me doing a PhD in the context of humanitarian ethics. I don't think I would have found many PhD supervisors who would actually be keen to allow me to critically reflect on 10 years in the field and to,

come up with tools that then help the next generation. so she has had the ability to see the knowledge, the expertise that I bring to the institute. And she also pushed me to just develop tools that are actually useful and pragmatic for humanitarian aid workers.

I think it is her ability to

rephrase my thoughts or to put them in a framework that is more structured and is extremely powerful. So I think these two people are the ones I look up to the most.

Nice. And would you like to share her name?

Her name is Professor Dr. Nicola Billa-Andorno and she's the head of the Institute of Biomedical Ethics and Law at the University of Zurich. And I will tell her what I have to tell her when I see her next time. She's also one of the people that whenever I question whether what I'm doing is right or wrong, I oftentimes call her.

Yes. Yeah, fantastic.

And she has that clarity of thought that in the end allows me to reassess my own views and she's very supportive of the kind of work that I've been doing so far and that is very, very helpful.

Hmm.

That's incredible that she stayed with you as well in your life. And it wasn't just that it ended when you finished your PhD, but she's a confidant that you call now. That's great. Yeah, nice. It's wonderful to thank these people and to reflect on them. And if you think at this, that leads us to our final question. And it's about you and your legacy.

Yes, I do,

and What is something that you want to be remembered by? Now, I think we often talk about legacy and we reflect and think of it when we're not here anymore, but I don't see it that way. I think our legacy is living in and it's around us all the time. So I'm curious to hear how you see your own legacy.

So if there's one thing that I would love to be remembered by is to have been able to contribute with some passion and enthusiasm for the work that we do, for the studies that we undertake, for the families that we look after, for the sports that we enjoy doing. I think when we are

passionate and enthusiastic, irrespective as to whether people agree with what we do. It is a little bit contagious, right? And some are the ones that just pick it up and it sort of nourishes their own thoughts.

And it allows them to then eventually either redefine what they want to do, to eventually explore doing something similar, or to also say, my god, no, that's not for me at all. But I think when we have that level of joy in what we do, and if we can transmit that to the next generation, I would love to be remembered as someone who had that drive and that

energy and that interest in shaping the next generation as well. So not only the people that work with me directly or the people that benefit from whatever it is that we do directly today, but also more specifically the next generation because I feel that we have a moral obligation and sort of a duty to ensure that they are better equipped than we were and not that they would necessarily listen,

to what I have to say. But sometimes I can see the glimpse in their eyes and they're like, yes, I can relate to that. yes, that is a path that I would like to explore. It just, it's everything that goes against inertia. You know, it's just to make sure that people continue moving forward. But always with the view for them to stay on their path, on what suits them.

you

Mmm.

so that they can stay true to themselves. That is what I would like to be.

That's a beautiful legacy to leave behind. And I can imagine that you're doing it with all the people that you've met on this wonderful journey that you're on and the people that you still have to meet. That's the exciting part too, to think about what's next and who are the people that are gonna cross my path in the future as well. And yeah.

Look at us!

Yeah, look at us,

we're a perfect example, aren't we? And I really believe the storytelling is just so crucial to all of that is to share these stories because I think that though that's when people can listen is when they hear stories and maybe not being directed to or told what to do, but to learn via those stories.

I like what you said because when I started when I was 25 I was curious to understand what I was going to get myself into and older colleagues they always told me but Caroline it depends and that sentence of in the it depends drove me nuts because I said okay good so give me the worst example and the best example but give me something right because I cannot make it up all by myself.

So when I teach, when I share those experiences, I just always tell them, this is my experience and it's probably 20 years ago. So the situation is definitely different today because all the parameters have changed. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't give you a sense of how things were being perceived, how things were felt and how things shaped us. And also what were the limited

Yep.

tools that we had or the limited powers that we have to change anything, anyway. And I think it's that narrative that also allows us to remain very humble and to make sure that we can share that and transmit that through experiences that we have lived and some of them already a long time ago.

Yeah, They are. I know. Yeah, for me too, the very long time ago. But I have to, I have to reflect back to one of the stories that you shared in the book and, and it was about Abraham and that has, that has stayed with me. And that for me is also something that speaks to also the, the, the legacy that you're talking about, what you want to do. That story is with me and

You know?

makes me think about seeing people and taking time for people and being present for people, So that I don't think that that's ever dated. I don't think you can you can say, ⁓ you know, different you should do that in this generation, but not in this generation. So I believe that so many of these things are timeless. And that's one of them that has stuck with me from listening to your stories.

Yes, and the other thing that I noticed is to just how important it is to demonstrate empathy at the right time. And it doesn't really require us to do anything else, right? We don't have to deliver any service. We just have to show, we have to acknowledge the pain the other person goes through and to just take the time to be with them when they express that. And then to also be there again

for them or for others when they're feeling better and to adjust to that. Yeah, these are Abraham. Gosh, I miss him.

is a

yeah yeah Well he is now ⁓ he is gonna he's on paper and people can read about him and learn from that experience I'm excited that that you shared that and ⁓ and lots of people be able to hear that story so thank you so much thanks for sharing your story ⁓ thanks for yeah opening yourself up ⁓ to all of the listeners

Thank you

It's been my pleasure as always. Thank you Sabine.

Thanks. Bye.

Bye bye.